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08-13-2019, 04:35 PM

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Originally Posted by slop stroke View Post
.......and more importantly, why are we not seeing the contempt for the current admin for this cycle of lavish spending over the last two + years......
Whenever it comes up in conversation......I point out that both D's and R's have an equally lousy track record in regards to increasing the National Debt.

What about you? What do you think about the circus of D candidates promising free $hit with no plan to pay for it.......you understand what that will do to the national debt?......don't you?
  
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08-13-2019, 04:43 PM

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Originally Posted by Jimmy M. View Post
Itís so funny whenever something like this gets posted because, in every case, one can just make the opposite point.

Why is it that some of you are concerned with the National Debt now when you werenít during the Obama years?

Hey! See how easy that was?
I think you have a false equivalency working here. First, I think Liberals, Libertarians, and Conservatives are all concerned about the National Debt. They were then and they are all concerned now. There is a difference, however. Fiscal responsibility is a cornerstone of the Republican platform. Probably about as much as health care is a part of the Democratic agenda. Both parties tend to leave the voters wanting, but in this case, the Republicans, and the members on this board raised holy hell over the debt during the Obama years, but have suddenly and noticeably been very silent of late. Liberals are not fighting tooth and nail to limit the debt ceiling, nor are they fundraising off of it. The MSNBC line-up is not locked in on the out-of-control spending occurring during the Trump administration. Most of the commentary on the subject from the lib side of the house is in relation to the silence of the lambs, er elephants.

You see this is a one-sided issue, although liberals are not clean in principle (see the drone strikes in the ME eg.), but on this issue you can't raise the "opposite" argument and make it stick, imo.


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08-13-2019, 04:56 PM

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Originally Posted by mr5994 View Post
Whenever it comes up in conversation......I point out that both D's and R's have an equally lousy track record in regards to increasing the National Debt.

What about you? What do you think about the circus of D candidates promising free $hit with no plan to pay for it.......you understand what that will do to the national debt?......don't you?
I think you have been very vocal regarding your disgust with the spending. I have a similar take. Republicans have a habit of running up the deficit, which translates to a higher National debt. I think you will find that the Dems have been reducing the deficit, although you will also find that generally speaking, taxes rise under Dem admins. Both parties have some splainin to do on that.

Neither party does a good job with debt, but I prefer to pay now as opposed to the Republican position which is to borrow now and pay it off later.

The free stuff you reference above is "to be paid for" by the upper middle class - supposedly those who have been paying little (in pct comparison to the middle class). All of these Santa Claus candidates are planning to have somebody else pay for the goodies they are bringing to the election.

I personally support a balance budget amendment. The Republicans had a chance to put that proposal to a vote during the first two years of the Trump admin. Neither party really appears to be interested in not borrowing more money... kicking the can down the road.


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08-13-2019, 05:06 PM

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Originally Posted by slop stroke View Post
I think you will find that the Dems have been reducing the deficit....
Have you paid any attention during the last administration? Obama oversaw one of the largest expansions of govt. in US history.

Both parties are equally at fault.....they just spend tax $ on different things (D's - handouts, R's - defense)
  
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08-13-2019, 05:08 PM

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Originally Posted by mr5994 View Post
Have you paid any attention during the last administration? Obama oversaw one of the largest expansions of govt. in US history.
Yes - I did. I also saw a 1T deficit come down to about .7T Each new admin ( perhaps with a few exceptions) can make the same claim.


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08-13-2019, 05:11 PM

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Originally Posted by slop stroke View Post

Neither party does a good job with debt, but I prefer to pay now as opposed to the Republican position which is to borrow now and pay it off later.
You realize Dem's do the same thing?...don't you? If what you say is true.....why did Obama rack up $10T in debt.....Why didn't he just raise taxes to pay for all his spending?
  
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08-13-2019, 05:15 PM

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Originally Posted by slop stroke View Post

Neither party does a good job with debt, but I prefer to pay now as opposed to the Republican position which is to borrow now and pay it off later.
I have a completely "off the wall" idea.......how about we CUT SPENDING?......cut handouts, cut foreign aid, cut defense spending, cut the entire dept of energy, dept of education, cut 5 out of 10 federal employees and 2 out of 10 state/local govt employees.....

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08-13-2019, 05:21 PM

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Originally Posted by slop stroke View Post

The free stuff you reference above is "to be paid for" by the upper middle class - supposedly those who have been paying little (in pct comparison to the middle class).
So the upper middle class is a bottomless piggy bank for the govt to extort money from? You realize they are already paying the lion share of taxes?

There are always tradeoffs in economics.......taxing more from the rich will result in a drop off in investment into business (why take risk or put effort into growing my business if the taxman is just going to take it all?).
  
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08-13-2019, 05:26 PM

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Originally Posted by slop stroke View Post
All of these Santa Claus candidates are planning to have somebody else pay for the goodies they are bringing to the election.
They don't know or care how much all that BS is going to cost.......let alone how to pay for it. I haven't seen one candidate state "we are going to pay for the free stuff with a XX% increase in taxes to the productive class....."
  
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08-13-2019, 05:30 PM

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Originally Posted by slop stroke View Post
Neither party really appears to be interested in not borrowing more money... kicking the can down the road.
I agree 100%!

This is why I have absolutely no respect for anyone in the Senate/House (aside from Rand Paul...and maybe 1 or 2 others.....and also why i will likely vote for the Libertarian candidate again in 2020.
  
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08-13-2019, 05:58 PM

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Originally Posted by mr5994 View Post
You realize Dem's do the same thing?...don't you? If what you say is true.....why did Obama rack up $10T in debt.....Why didn't he just raise taxes to pay for all his spending?
Each admin has a running start. The prior admin keeps the behemoth in motion that is the fed budget. The new admin can cut or add to what is currently in place. I do not need to explain to you how hard it is to cut anything, but let's just say that each new admin (including Bush 1) starts with a deficit.

Obama started with a 1T plus deficit and a major recession, whereby the US gov't was one of only a few entities doing major business within the US market. Economists will argue for years whether the gov't should have spent more or less, but a case was made for spending (borrowing in the short term) for the good of the nation.

In any case the deficits added up, not soley because of Obama policies, but because Obama did not do enough to cut the 1T deficit, imo.

Obama could not raise enough taxes to cover that deficit. Again 1T before he stepped foot in the Oval office. No congress would agree to it. However, it would have generated a balanced budget, which I support. As a compromise, we saw some cuts (minor imo), but also more taxes.


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08-13-2019, 06:01 PM

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Originally Posted by mr5994 View Post
I have a completely "off the wall" idea.......how about we CUT SPENDING?......cut handouts, cut foreign aid, cut defense spending, cut the entire dept of energy, dept of education, cut 5 out of 10 federal employees and 2 out of 10 state/local govt employees.....
I agree! Wait am I becoming a conservative??? Although I think the energy dept. is another name for the nuclear dept. We might want to make sure that is handled. lol


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08-13-2019, 06:06 PM

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So the upper middle class is a bottomless piggy bank for the govt to extort money from? You realize they are already paying the lion share of taxes?

There are always tradeoffs in economics.......taxing more from the rich will result in a drop off in investment into business (why take risk or put effort into growing my business if the taxman is just going to take it all?).
You know there was a time when the top earners were paying 90%. The US still had a pretty good GDP. I am not suggesting that we return to those top rates (I know there were a lot of deductions, etc.). The point is the top earners paying better than 20% is not going to kill the economy. There is a happy medium somewhere. BTW, I ain't in the free stuff crowd. I am in the game, and I think our group can stand a little more pain.


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08-13-2019, 06:09 PM

And BTW Mr.5994 thanks for not calling me an idiot in this delightful discussion!


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08-13-2019, 06:31 PM

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Originally Posted by mr5994 View Post
Have you paid any attention during the last administration? Obama oversaw one of the largest expansions of govt. in US history.

Both parties are equally at fault.....they just spend tax $ on different things (D's - handouts, R's - defense)
What did he expand in any large way? Serious question.

Not the federal workforce. Not the discretionary budget, iirc.

And he got the sequester put into the budget laws, so if certain spending and/or deficit levels were exceeded, a meat axe cut came down across the board on the defense and domestic spending sides, equally.

So if he did what you say, I must have missed it. Please explain.


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