APA Rules Question

AceAngeles · Mar 5, 2015

Brushing cue ball up or down

Around 25 years ago I read in Pool and Billiard magazine an instructional section by Nick Varner. It showed how to do it pulling the cue stick up or down. Nick Varner said it was a legal shot. The APA rulebook doesn't say anything about it so it must be legal as it is in other levels of pool including professional tournaments. The only thing that many rules usually state is that the cue stick cannot be used as a measuring device.

hang-the-9 · Mar 5, 2015

AceAngeles said:
Around 25 years ago I read in Pool and Billiard magazine an instructional section by Nick Varner. It showed how to do it pulling the cue stick up or down. Nick Varner said it was a legal shot. The APA rulebook doesn't say anything about it so it must be legal as it is in other levels of pool including professional tournaments. The only thing that many rules usually state is that the cue stick cannot be used as a measuring device.

That shot is not legal as the WPA states that the shot has to be done in a forward motion of the stick. It may not have been in the rules 25 years ago, but it's in there now and I'm sure has been for a while.

I don't consider the APA real pool rules, or any league rules as such for that matter, so if the APA choses to make that shot OK to do, it's up to them. One of the reason I like the BCA and USAPL leagues is that they follow the same rules you would see in a professional tournament.

At best you can maybe strike at a arc where you hit forward then away, but I'm totally sure that if an official WPA ref posts here, they will say that simply placing the stick next to the cueball and lifting up or down is not allowed.

Someone posted that an APA ref said this shot was illegal though already, but I'd like to see that somewhere else as many have said they've seen APA players do that and no-one complained. Of course that may just be a case of people not knowing what a good hit is, just like most people have no idea what a double hit or a push shot is.

A miscue is not automatically a foul, and it very different from a deliberate foul stroke. There are many official rullings specifically about a miscue where they state that even though it's possible the ferrule does stike the ball, a miscue will be just that and not another foul.

rocket23 · Mar 5, 2015

pretty slick, figuring a way for a safety without actually using stroke speed as a way to make said safety.....it should be called, if not shame on the opposition,imho. I would instruct a ref before a playoff match, and call bullshit on seasonal play.

APA Operator · Mar 5, 2015

hang-the-9 said:
When you hit down on the cue for a masse, you are still moving the tip forward, just forward towards the ground. It does not have to be forward as in parallel with the table, just the stoke goes from back of the cue to the front like I diagramed where I had the cue angled down. Tip motion is directly way from the rear of the cue in a straight line along the cue length, not up at a 45 degree angle from it.

Lets use a gun analogy, if you shoot a gun, the bullet goes straight from the barrel opening. It goes that way if you have the gun pointed away from you parallel to the ground, up in the air, at the ground. Forward motion of the bullet, does not matter which way the end of the barrel is pointed at.

The issue here is that the APA does not explain what a legal stoke is in the rules. Maybe it does not matter in the APA rules how you hit the ball as long as the tip hits the cueball.

I'm sure you realize that defining a stroke as you have here means most, if not all, strokes would be illegal. There's almost always some amount of rotational motion in the cue because the bridge hand acts as a fulcrum and the other hand is moving in an arc. Anyone who jumps up or drops the elbow on a shot is creating some angular motion in the tip end of the cue, as is anyone who drops their bridge on a draw stroke or otherwise creates an intentional "swerve". By your definition, these are all illegal strokes because the tip is not moving in a straight line away from the butt end of the cue.

In golf, the R&A and PGA have made it illegal to anchor any part of the club (putter, specifically) to one's body. In order for a swing to be legal, both ends of the club must move. To make this particular shot illegal while allowing all the other forms of angular motion, I think one would have to do something similar, like making the stroke illegal if any part of the cue is fixed in space during the shot.

With regard to APA rules not being technical enough, I think the last paragraph on page 5 of the team manual explains the philosophy pretty well. Referring to the participants as "simple", IMO, is inaccurate, elitist, and offensive.

whammo57 · Mar 5, 2015

cfrandy said:
There are people who still play APA?

Don't be so quick to bash the APA. And yes, people still play the APA league. There are about a quarter million of members in the US. There are many in the CPA in Canada.

If it wasn't for those members supporting the local bars and pool halls ....... you might not be enjoying pool as much as you like.

Leagues...... all if them..... make and keep pool the sport that it is............

Kim

pt109 · Mar 5, 2015

AceAngeles said:
Around 25 years ago I read in Pool and Billiard magazine an instructional section by Nick Varner. It showed how to do it pulling the cue stick up or down. Nick Varner said it was a legal shot. The APA rulebook doesn't say anything about it so it must be legal as it is in other levels of pool including professional tournaments. The only thing that many rules usually state is that the cue stick cannot be used as a measuring device.

This shot was played in a Mizerak tournament on the Redneck Riviera ...late 90s.
Scott Smith called it a foul.

Patrick Johnson · Mar 5, 2015

APA Operator said:
I'm sure you realize that defining a stroke as you have here means most, if not all, strokes would be illegal. There's almost always some amount of rotational motion in the cue because the bridge hand acts as a fulcrum and the other hand is moving in an arc. Anyone who jumps up or drops the elbow on a shot is creating some angular motion in the tip end of the cue, as is anyone who drops their bridge on a draw stroke or otherwise creates an intentional "swerve". By your definition, these are all illegal strokes because the tip is not moving in a straight line away from the butt end of the cue.

But then there's this thing called "common sense"...

Ever heard of it?

pj
chgo

hang-the-9 · Mar 5, 2015

pt109 said:
This shot was played in a Mizerak tournament on the Redneck Riviera ...late 90s.
Scott Smith called it a foul.

Good memory, even on who called it a foul LOL

hang-the-9 · Mar 5, 2015

APA Operator said:
I'm sure you realize that defining a stroke as you have here means most, if not all, strokes would be illegal. There's almost always some amount of rotational motion in the cue because the bridge hand acts as a fulcrum and the other hand is moving in an arc. Anyone who jumps up or drops the elbow on a shot is creating some angular motion in the tip end of the cue, as is anyone who drops their bridge on a draw stroke or otherwise creates an intentional "swerve". By your definition, these are all illegal strokes because the tip is not moving in a straight line away from the butt end of the cue.

In golf, the R&A and PGA have made it illegal to anchor any part of the club (putter, specifically) to one's body. In order for a swing to be legal, both ends of the club must move. To make this particular shot illegal while allowing all the other forms of angular motion, I think one would have to do something similar, like making the stroke illegal if any part of the cue is fixed in space during the shot.

With regard to APA rules not being technical enough, I think the last paragraph on page 5 of the team manual explains the philosophy pretty well. Referring to the participants as "simple", IMO, is inaccurate, elitist, and offensive.

Just because you can't shoot the cue in a laser straight line does not mean that you can't tell when a stroke was done in a "forward" motion. There is a certain limit where you can possibly be able to measure what is forward and what is not. Placing the cue and then moving the tip at a 45% angle from the it's plane is clearly not even an attempt at forward motion. Having the tip go at say a 10% angle off center when you hit is still forward. I think you can even call a shot where you move the tip at less than 22.5% after you start your stroke still a forward moving shot easily.

In that swipe shot you are not even using the back hand to move the cue, you are raising it up with the bridge hand or just wigling the back hand in a loose bridge to the side.

Don't know about anyone else but when the APA states that the reason they modify rules or forgive certain fouls because "it's an amateur" league, to me that simply means they don't think the people playing are aware enough of what they are doing to follow the WPA rules. I guess it's the "special olympics" of pool, modified rules for those that can't compete against the able bodied. You can't expect someone in a wheel chair to play basketball well against the Celtics, so you have their rules and area they can play with. Since the APA is modifiying rules from WPA to make things simpler for the players, they clearly have low expectations from them, either in their ability to execute shots within the rules or comprehending the rules. It would be like someone looking at Tetris and saying "that game is way too hard, too many shapes, I'll make a game with only straight lines and maybe a square so that kids and those with a lower awareness of space and shapes can play it easier. "

Scott Lee · Mar 5, 2015

That quarter million players also include the CPA and the JPA (Japan)...not just the US. Still, it's a large number, and by far the largest sanctioned league in the world (so far). I agree with everything you said! :thumbup:

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

whammo57 said:
Don't be so quick to bash the APA. And yes, people still play the APA league. There are about a quarter million of members in the US. There are many in the CPA in Canada.

If it wasn't for those members supporting the local bars and pool halls ....... you might not be enjoying pool as much as you like.

Leagues...... all if them..... make and keep pool the sport that it is............

Kim

AtLarge · Mar 5, 2015

hang-the-9 said:
... A miscue is not automatically a foul, and it very different from a deliberate foul stroke. There are many official rullings specifically about a miscue where they state that even though it's possible the ferrule does stike the ball, a miscue will be just that and not another foul.

Yes, but as you probably know, an intentional miscue is unsportsmanlike conduct (under WPA rules, at least).

hang-the-9 · Mar 5, 2015

AtLarge said:
Yes, but as you probably know, an intentional miscue is unsportsmanlike conduct (under WPA rules, at least).

Yep, and I agree with that totally. If you actually think about it, the shot in question here is similar to a deliberate miscue since you are trying to make the cue and tip do something other than a standard stroke.

Celophanewrap · Mar 5, 2015

hang-the-9 said:
Yep, and I agree with that totally. If you actually think about it, the shot in question here is similar to a deliberate miscue since you are trying to make the cue and tip do something other than a standard stroke.

Something other than a standard stroke...
like a jump , or masse', or draw, or follow, or what's that one called, "fwet-tay"? all of which are something other than a standard stroke

rocket23 · Mar 5, 2015

Then again, if your stroke is horrid as is the case with a lot of ''players''. then the tip crooning up and down like a frigging oil rig while shooting as your stroke arm grabs the butt of the stick like it was the last cue stick on earth.......why wouldn't it be a legal shot to simply move the cb with a flick of the bridge hand.......hell nothing else resembled a stroke anyways.......(sarcastic post for the hard of thinking)

hang-the-9 · Mar 5, 2015

Celophanewrap said:
Something other than a standard stroke...
like a jump , or masse', or draw, or follow, or what's that one called, "fwet-tay"? all of which are something other than a standard stroke

All those are the same stoke just pointed at different areas of the cue ball. The arm going forward motion is the same in all of them.

APA Operator · Mar 6, 2015

Patrick Johnson said:
But then there's this thing called "common sense"...

Ever heard of it?

pj
chgo

You really should have read the paragraph in the team manual to which I referred in my original reply (the part you snipped) before making a comment like this. You missed my point entirely.

justadub · Mar 6, 2015

My LO said the shot was considered legal, and that it had come up the previous Vegas.

Do I think its goofy, yes. Are there some other goofyish rules in play, sure.

It's their perspective, it's their league, For the most part, they do a pretty good job providing a pretty good experience playing pool at the beginner level for an awful lot of people across the country.

I always have to laugh at the furor and angst these APA threads cause here on AZB. Why does it offend you so much? If you don't like it, don't play it. Most of you obviously don't, so why come here and shake your fist angrily about it?

Is it because these people are happy playing pool in a manner that YOU don't approve of? If so, that's pretty sad.

APA Rules Question

AceAngeles

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hang-the-9

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rocket23

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APA Operator

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whammo57

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pt109

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Scott Lee

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rocket23

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