Tight Pockets

DrCue'sProtege said:

EXACTLY!

Its better to shoot 87-87 and miss the cut in the U.S. Open than it is to finish 2nd in a mini-tour.

Its better to lose 11-0 and 11-0 in a pro tournament than to finish 2nd in a local tournament.

r/DCP

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Why is it better? I like to test myself. I like tests that result in me being successful if I do things very well. I've won a few matches in Joss tour events, finished high in some national amateur events, won a pretty good regional tour event, and won tons of local tourneys. ALL of those things matter to me. Obviously, the big wins mean more. But I see nothing wrong with putting myself in a situation where I am "supposed" to win, to see if I can play my game and get the job done. It is a habit to learn, and I believe it translates well to bigger competition.

If you are a good local player, then to me it is way better to finish 2nd in a local tournament then to go 0-2 in the US Open. Why? Because then you really tested yourself, AND YOU CAME THROUGH! Going 0-2 in the US Open basically tells you nothing. It is a fun thing to do, and nothing more. You haven't really tested yourself, and honestly you basically provide a huge excuse for losing and coming up short.

Not everyone can play pro speed. But the nature of competition is such that striving to win is what it is all about for a lot of people. I want to *try hard*, do *my* best, and see what that gets me. I want to see if I can bring out my best when it counts. If I was independently wealthy, you can bet I'd play in lots of pro tourneys. I'd probably get much better and may even cash after a year or so of that. Who knows. Point is, I am *not* a pro level player, and I would NOT cash tomorrow. So for me, the only reason the experience gained from playing in a big pro tourney matters is because it allows me to strive harder and excel more in the lower level tourneys where I have a real shot to win.

I'm headed out to Vegas at the end of April for the APA singles. For my level, that is an ideal tourney. I often get seeded into the "top" bracket, and have to play a bunch of past champions to get to the cash. I play solid on the bar table. I am not a favorite to win that tourney, but I'm not a huge underdog in any match either. I need a lot of luck, my very best game, great personal management over multiple days, and maybe a miracle or two. I got 5th one time, beating some top level guys along the way. That is my best. This year of course I will be shooting for better. My point is that winning a tourney like that would be a MAJOR notch in my belt, and one that would make me ecstatic! For my level of play, that is essentially the same as a pro winning the US Open. So for me, that tourney is a stretch, but something I know I can do. If I get a top 10 finish then I can be happy about that, from a competition standpoint. Going 0-2 in the US Open would not even come close to giving me the same satisfaction. Losing when I could have won means far more than loosing when I could not have won. That difference right there is what, for me, heart is all about.

KMRUNOUT

DogsPlayingPool said:

Here's some close ups of my GC4 with 4.25 corners and 4.75 sides. Set up and rails were done by Donny Wessel. Plays great for 9-10 Ball and One Hole. It's a little tough for 14.1 TBH, but workable. Just can't cheat 'em as much as I'd like to provide the best playability for straight pool. I play a softer old school game and given the choice prefer to use cut angle for position rather than a rail.


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Very nice pictures. That setup looks pretty ideal to me.

KMRUNOUT

KMRUNOUT said:

It sure sounds like your stroke *can't* get you where you need to be if shooting the ball in the center of the hole is some sort of obstacle to you...

KMRUNOUT

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The problem is in straight pool, where you would often like to not have to shoot at the center of the pocket. And it's not about the stroke since frequently you aren't even going to a rail. When working in tight quarters at the foot end often times manipulating the cut angle is the only way to get shape on the correct ball of the best pattern. You need pockets big enough to allow you to do this. And there are additional times when you may have a choice for playing position but cut angle is the best alternative.

4.5" to 5" for straight pool. Sides a half inch bigger. Of course, YMMV.

DogsPlayingPool said:

The problem is in straight pool, where you would often like to not have to shoot at the center of the pocket. And it's not about the stroke since frequently you aren't even going to a rail. When working in tight quarters at the foot end often times manipulating the cut angle is the only way to get shape on the correct ball of the best pattern. You need pockets big enough to allow you to do this. And there are additional times when you may have a choice for playing position but cut angle is the best alternative.

4.5" to 5" for straight pool. Sides a half inch bigger. Of course, YMMV.

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Regardless of the game, both players are on the same table. Tighten up the pockets, and the player with the tighter game wins.

DrCue'sProtege said:

EXACTLY!

Its better to shoot 87-87 and miss the cut in the U.S. Open than it is to finish 2nd in a mini-tour.

Its better to lose 11-0 and 11-0 in a pro tournament than to finish 2nd in a local tournament.

r/DCP

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I disagree, but of course it depends a little bit on your ability. Going 2 and out in the Open does not really prove anything. That result could mean that you are a total assclown, or a pro having some bad luck. No way to tell. Coming second in a local tournament does tell a lot more, and it's more lucrative as well.

It's fun to compete in the toughest tournaments a rare once in a while, but not being a top player, I prefer playing against someone closer to my own speed most of the time. I prefer someone slightly better than myself, so I have to rise to the challenge. I must admit it's a disappointment to lose to someone that I should beat every now and then, but at least I won't be the "what-the-hell-was-he-thinking-guy". Nobody wants to be that guy.

DogsPlayingPool said:

Here's some close ups of my GC4 with 4.25 corners and 4.75 sides. Set up and rails were done by Donny Wessel. Plays great for 9-10 Ball and One Hole. It's a little tough for 14.1 TBH, but workable. Just can't cheat 'em as much as I'd like to provide the best playability for straight pool. I play a softer old school game and given the choice prefer to use cut angle for position rather than a rail.


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Wow, that's beautiful. I would kill for that at home.

So ive never measured my table at home or the tight tables I play on regularly at the pool hall. Where exactly do you measure to determine width?

<----champion. Pockets at home, 6 inches.

Icon of Sin said:

So ive never measured my table at home or the tight tables I play on regularly at the pool hall. Where exactly do you measure to determine width?

<----champion. Pockets at home, 6 inches.

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Point to point

Tight pockets don't scare me..I've gambled a lot on them....pool and snooker.
But I have never played on a tight table for pleasure...or to practice.
What are you going to learn?.....how to play conservative?

There was an old club in Britain that had an old English Billiard table...
...3.25 inch pockets.
They had ONE century run in eighty years on that table.
Now if you played regularly on that table...you weren't going to go to a regulation....
..3.5 inch pockets.
...table and run hundreds....
...you wouldn't even know a good pattern for running hundreds...
...you were too busy trying to make a @&$#% ball!

If I ruled the pool world.....the corner pockets would be 4.5...sides...5 inches...
....NO deep shelves

pt109 said:

Tight pockets don't scare me..I've gambled a lot on them....pool and snooker.
But I have never played on a tight table for pleasure...or to practice.
What are you going to learn?.....how to play conservative?

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I play/practice/gamble on a real tight one at least once a week for practice. Along the lines of what are you gonna learn on them, well you arent really learning anything, but you are training yourself to make balls on smaller pockets which does wonders for your accuracy when on a table with regular/larger pockets.

Really helps with your confidence.

Watch last year's Mosconi cup. So many bad hit balls that actually went in. If you can make those hard, long, stroke shots on a tight pocket table, then you will notice even more forgiveness in a regular pocket table.

Kinda the same mindset from going to big table to barbox.

Icon of Sin said:

I play/practice/gamble on a real tight one at least once a week for practice. Along the lines of what are you gonna learn on them, well you arent really learning anything, but you are training yourself to make balls on smaller pockets which does wonders for your accuracy when on a table with regular/larger pockets.

Really helps with your confidence.

Watch last year's Mosconi cup. So many bad hit balls that actually went in. If you can make those hard, long, stroke shots on a tight pocket table, then you will notice even more forgiveness in a regular pocket table.

Kinda the same mindset from going to big table to barbox.

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When you play on a loose table, there's nobody telling you you have to play sloppy.
You can hit them dead center into a big pocket also.

Every pool hall I've been to (with the exception of Hard Times) has 4.5" or larger corner pockets.

Where are all of you playing that have 4" pockets?

I believe home tables are tight (some of them anyway), but not commercial ones.

Show a picture of these pockets with a RULER across the points. I suspect most of you are guessing at the pocket size.

MSchaffer said:

Every pool hall I've been to (with the exception of Hard Times) has 4.5" or larger corner pockets.

Where are all of you playing that have 4" pockets?

I believe home tables are tight (some of them anyway), but not commercial ones.

Show a picture of these pockets with a RULER across the points. I suspect most of you are guessing at the pocket size.

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Alot of the "player" rooms have 1 or 2 tight tables.....not sure where you came up with 4" as a number, most have said 4.25. Big difference between 4 and 4.25.
My home table has 4 1/8 to 4 1/4 corners.

Maybe they always stick you on "banger" tables, if you don't know these(tight tables) exist maybe thats the correct place for you :grin:
Jason

pt109 said:

When you play on a loose table, there's nobody telling you you have to play sloppy.
You can hit them dead center into a big pocket also.

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If you can drill into your head that you have to hit dead center for that ball to go in you have a ton more room for error on the looser table. You can play a bit more sloppy and get away with it.

Plus IMO, it also helps give a better sense of what I can get away with now. Making cheating the pocket much easier.

pt109 said:

When you play on a loose table, there's nobody telling you you have to play sloppy.
You can hit them dead center into a big pocket also.

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But there's no punishment if you do play sloppy - big difference
Jason

I think this thread would be better served if someone with the skills, showed different tables, pocket cuts, shelf and pocket size. Then show shots that could and couldn't be made on each table. Shots that on one table would be made on a regular basis and a safety played on a regular basis on another table. Should a ball on the rail be impossible to make? Like any sport (if pool is a sport), offense is desired to make the game more exciting. Our bar got a Diamond. Hated it at first but now love playing on it. It's an adjustment and I think it has helped my game. I also think it took time for the cloth to wear more for it to play more favorable. Tight pockets and fast cloth can take the fun out of pool. Doesn't mean you suck. Just a bad combination. I don't care about pocket-size. I do think if I put the object ball inside the tits. It should go.

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Baxter said:

Regardless of the game, both players are on the same table. Tighten up the pockets, and the player with the tighter game wins.

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I agree with the first part for sure. It's the same for both players. But in straight pool I'm not sure the second part is true. From my position, bigger pockets is not about allowing the sloppier shot maker an advantage. It's about being able to cheat the pocket when needed to play position without going to a rail. In most cases in order to be successful in this you must still aim and hit a very precise part of the pocket. Miss by smidge and no next shot. With 4" pockets it often times doesn't matter how much better one player is at shot making, there is no chance for him to play position. If you think about it in those terms, tighter pockets are the equalizer, not looser ones. :thumbup:

Again, my issue with tight pockets is primarily in regard to straight pool. My own table is 4.25" corners, and I paid to have them brought in to that. :thumbup:

BTW, how are things at the DownLo?

jburkm002 said:

I think this thread would be better served if someone with the skills, showed different tables, pocket cuts, shelf and pocket size. Then show shots that could and couldn't be made on each table. Shots that on one table would be made on a regular basis and a safety played on a regular basis on another table. Should a ball on the rail be impossible to make? Like any sport (if pool is a sport), offense is desired to make the game more exciting. Our bar got a Diamond. Hated it at first but now love playing on it. It's an adjustment and I think it has helped my game. I also think it took time for the cloth to wear more for it to play more favorable. Tight pockets and fast cloth can take the fun out of pool. Doesn't mean you suck. Just a bad combination. I don't care about pocket-size. I do think if I put the object ball inside the tits. It should go.

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Running a ball down the rail of a snooker table, and making it, is very difficult, not impossible.

What goes in depends on speed and accuracy.
Increasing speed to get the cue ball into position for the next shot may compromise accuracy - it is not offense but players' choices that make the game more interesting.

Longer shots, smaller pockets will show how rotten your stroke actually is.
Many players do not want this self knowledge.
Hence the distaste for difficult tables.

KMRUNOUT said:

It sure sounds like your stroke *can't* get you where you need to be if shooting the ball in the center of the hole is some sort of obstacle to you. I personally LOVE the feeling of stroking a big shot right into the hole with loads of spin or other cueball action on a very tight table. So rewarding and satisfying. I think that sort of feeling and desire is the thing that motivates some people to try and become high level players. With all due respect, I don't think the table plays stupid. I think maybe your stroke just needs some work. Perhaps that would change your opinion. Not trying to be mean...I've just never heard a very strong player say they don't like playing on tight tables.

KMRUNOUT

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I dislike super tight tables mainly not because they are tough but because they change the game. There are absolutely certain shots that DO NOT GO on a stupid tight table THAT SHOULD GO and do go on a regular table. This ends up making you change your startegy, stroke, mentality which I don't think you should have to do.