A Fresh New Look at Cut Induced Throw

FeelDaShot

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I must admit, after my 8 years of intensely studying the game, I've come to the conclusion that I've been underestimating the effects of cut-induced throw (CIT) all along. I've researched it to death and know how it changes with speed, spin, and cut angle but I just haven't been accounting for it enough. Based on how often I see people undercut shots, I don't think I'm the only one doing this so hopefully this revelation can help someone else out there too.

When I miss, it's mostly because I undercut the shot. My stroke is pretty good but I have an aiming problem. I've been aware of this for many years now but I never correctly diagnosed the problem until now. For a long time, I primarily played on bar boxes and their forgiving nature allowed me to make shots that were aimed bad. This didn't help. However, playing on 9 footers was a disaster and I would attribute my misses to the extra distance which couldn't have been further from the truth.

With straight in shots I was money...even from long distances. I was also good at shots with a cut angle up to about 30 degrees. I knew CIT was a major factor on these shots and I would properly account for it. However, when I would get beyond 30 degree cuts, I would often miss and not understand why.

I initially came to the conclusion that my mind was playing tricks on me and I wasn't seeing the shots correctly. I figured this was due to either a vision center issue or an incorrect "shot picture" that I've engrained in my head. Regardless, I knew I had to focus on overcutting shots in order to play my best. This is easier said than done and doesn't always work. Eventually, after playing well for a few sessions I would slowly fall back into my old habits and start undercutting easy shots again. Very frustrating...

It wasn't until recently, after coming back from a few month break from pool, that I realized my problem. I needed to focus way more on CIT. Friction affects medium to thin cut shots much more than I previously thought. I've always been aware of it, especially on fuller hits but I wasn't accounting for it nearly enough on most shots. Now that I'm adjusting properly my shot making percentage has significantly risen.

I can't describe how excited I am to finally overcome this roadblock. Aiming adjustments are much easier once you fully understand why you need to adjust rather than just telling yourself to "overcut it more" without any reason.

Not only has my game improved, but I'm no longer needing to stay down on the shot as long to fine tune my aiming beyond what my eyes are telling me. This extra mental effort would becoming draining after a few matches. The game is much more relaxing and enjoyable now.

I love revisiting old information and looking at it in a new light. No matter how long you've been playing, there's always more to learn! Play well my friends :smile:
 
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evergruven

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
great post..pool keeps it real with us don't it
you stayed available, so share in the bounty
and thanks for passing the plate..but will we also eat?
 

sjm

Older and Wiser
Silver Member
A superb post. Jack Kohler's book "The Science of Pocket Billiards" gives a nice consideration of this, although he called it "collision induced throw."

The real lesson to take away is that, although the introduction of "ghost ball" concepts by Ray Martin (in, I believe 1974) remains a major, and still extremely important, contribution to the game's theory, the "ghost ball" theory has certain limitations that need to be understood. The most important one of these limitations is that it does not fully account for collision induced throw.

Glad to hear that you seem to have gotten your arms around this often troubling reality that makes the game of pool so much more challenging.
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
the "ghost ball" theory has certain limitations that need to be understood. The most important one of these limitations is that it does not fully account for collision induced throw.
I think the ghost ball is properly visualized wherever it needs to be to make the shot, including consideration of throw. Only visualizing it at the non-throw contact position is an unnecessary limitation.

pj
chgo
 

sjm

Older and Wiser
Silver Member
I think the ghost ball is properly visualized wherever it needs to be to make the shot, including consideration of throw. Only visualizing it at the non-throw contact position is an unnecessary limitation.

pj
chgo

Right on, Patrick. Experience allows us to redefine where the ghost ball is for pocketing when collision induced throw is in play but the knowledge of exactly how to do so is a long time coming for most.
 

dr_dave

Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
For those interested, illustrations, demonstrations, and a good summary of everything you need to know about throw (CIT and SIT) in your game can be found here:

Online Throw Tutorial

Enjoy,
Dave
 
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dr_dave

Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
For those interested, illustrations, demonstrations, and a good summary of everything you need to know about throw (CIT and SIT) in your game can be found here:

Online Throw Tutorial

Enjoy,
Dave
SIT = Saliva Inhibited Throw :D
I like it. You must have seen my spit balls in the videos.

Great material from Dr. Dave.


This is deep knowledge!
I agree. I have definitely spent more time studying, analyzing, and experimenting with throw than any other pool topic. A full understanding of all its intricacies is definitely deep knowledge.

Regards,
Dave

PS: For those interested, all the deep knowledge intricacies of throw are listed (with supporting resources) here:

squirt, swerve, and throw effects
 

The_JV

'AZB_Combat Certified'
If there's one thing joining this forum has shown me. It's how automatic things can become with experience.

I don't consider CIT at all when aiming. My compensation/adjustment for it "just happens" when addressing the shot. At least I'm assuming it does...lol. I know CIT a real thing, and I know I never think "ok I'm cutting it this much, with this much spin, so make this adjustment" when down on the ball.
 

Geosnooker

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
If there's one thing joining this forum has shown me. It's how automatic things can become with experience.

I don't consider CIT at all when aiming. My compensation/adjustment for it "just happens" when addressing the shot. At least I'm assuming it does...lol. I know CIT a real thing, and I know I never think "ok I'm cutting it this much, with this much spin, so make this adjustment" when down on the ball.

Same here.

I never give any system a thought. I know how much cut and spin to put on a ball. If miss the shot it is because of a physical error and not because I didn’t assess the situation correctly.

When I’m playing, I prefer to keep my mind clear. I get into a groove. Others may do better if ‘thinking’ about the specific needs of a particular shot. However for me it’s like playing a game of catch. We can throw a ball back and forth quite accurately while talking about ‘whatever’.

Being a geophysicist I know that every billiard shot involves classical physics and CIT is real. . However, humans are quite adapted to performing complex tasks. We will make a better posting on this forum focusing on the idea rather than focusing on what key to tap.
 

BC21

https://www.playpoolbetter.com
Gold Member
Silver Member
If there's one thing joining this forum has shown me. It's how automatic things can become with experience.

I don't consider CIT at all when aiming. My compensation/adjustment for it "just happens" when addressing the shot. At least I'm assuming it does...lol. I know CIT a real thing, and I know I never think "ok I'm cutting it this much, with this much spin, so make this adjustment" when down on the ball.

Exactly! Eventually you just recognize that certain shots need to be hit or aimed a little thinner or a thicker to compensate for throw, whether it's spin or collision induced throw. There comes a time when it's not something you have to think too much about or consciously make adjustments for.
 

Kdogster

Registered
I'd agree that our mind can adjust automatically for the effects of throw on many shots. However, there are some shots that don't come up as often in game play, and we don't realize that our mind does not have a program to be successful on these. Having knowledge of the physics of throw and systems for adjusting to it or using throw as a tool for certain situations is a huge advantage.

I've played a lot of pool, but I recognize how inconsistent I am on certain shots which are affected by throw. In particular, the shots that are hit softly, extreme side spin, or long gaps between CB and OB and/or between OB and pocket. On a lot of these shots, it's pure guesswork. Therefore, I'm trying to learn some systems, so I can get a little more consistent. I also see some applications for using throw as a tool, which I don't always notice. These are great reasons to learn some physics. If nothing else, it adds to the mass of knowledge, which improves intuition.
 
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