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Masayoshi
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11-23-2018, 07:59 AM

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Originally Posted by jrctherake View Post
I would love to hear Dr. Dave's opinion on how a player that beats 10 ghost 11 - 4 would compare to a farce rating of ????. In general, if even possible.

Where you at Doc.....and thank for your time Sir!

Rake
If you average 11-4 against the 10 ball ghost on a 9 foot table without pattern racking, you are world class. If you only do it 1 time in x tries, you can be anywhere from a solid B on up.
  
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Patrick Johnson
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11-23-2018, 11:09 AM

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Originally Posted by sixpack View Post
The hard part about that is that skills don’t always map to how players fare in competition.
True dat. But what's the alternative for players without "formal" ratings? A rough approximation is better than nothing, especially for a starting rating.

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11-23-2018, 11:10 AM

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Originally Posted by mikepage View Post
After our mobile APP is out, we will be able, for examples, to ask everybody the same question--best pattern, one rail or two, stripes or solids, etc and get rapid results segregated by rating. Will will also be able to have a drill of the day or a task that we invite everybody to attempt. And once again we will be able to aggregate the results by rating.
Cool. Got an ETA for the app?

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Dan Wolfe
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11-23-2018, 01:16 PM

Courtesy of Dr Dave

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jrctherake
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11-23-2018, 06:15 PM

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Originally Posted by Masayoshi View Post
If you average 11-4 against the 10 ball ghost on a 9 foot table without pattern racking, you are world class. If you only do it 1 time in x tries, you can be anywhere from a solid B on up.
I've not played much ghost pool lately due to illness but, I've got most of my ghost matches results on spreadsheet with % wins/losses, average score for races to 7, 9, 11, 15 and 25.

I'll look and post it later. I can tell you now though, lol, I don't "average" 11 / 4. I've got plenty of 11 / 3 to 5 scores but I've also got several 11 / 7 to hill / hill matches that bring my average down.

As for pattern racking, I know how and am pretty good at it but, I dont do it unless I let it be known that I'm doing so. Otherwise, I put 1 in front, 10 middle, 2 and 3 on corners and other balls go where they go.....randomly.

Funny how sometimes the 4 and 5, 6 and 7, 8 and 9 seem to gravitate to one another.... I have to "work" at it to make sure they are not...... in a way, "that" is pattern racking "AGAINST MYSELF".....

lol,

I'll post info when I get home,

Rake


I knew a fellow that thought he was a good boxer because he was in a position to befriend a lot of "professional boxers". It cost him azzwhippens till he realized he wasn't what he thought/wished he was.

Do you know anyone like the "wannabe" boxer in the pool world?
  
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11-23-2018, 06:22 PM

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Originally Posted by Dan Wolfe View Post
Courtesy of Dr Dave

Attachment 505946
Thanks.

The "Traditional Player Level" comes closest to what I'd like to see - an equally common but more precise way to express that.

pj
chgo

Last edited by Patrick Johnson; 11-23-2018 at 06:25 PM.
  
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11-23-2018, 09:06 PM

I'm around a 535 Fargo and based on how I've self assessed over the years I'd say Dr Dave's chart is pretty accurate at least for me.

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11-23-2018, 09:45 PM

My Fargo rate...apa and bcapl handicaps all fall in line with what dd Dave has listed
  
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I don't play but my Fargo keeps going up?
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I don't play but my Fargo keeps going up? - 11-23-2018, 09:50 PM

First I want to state, I like the Fargo system.
Almost two years ago I beat a guy that won the tournament I was in. It was the first round and we both played bad.
I did make it to the top ten in a field of 79.
I have not really competed since then for medical reasons.
My Fargo has gone up over this time because people I beat have gotten better.
I am a 5 in our TAP league, yet many of our 6's are 20-30 points lower. in Fargo ratings.
If some one I beat "back in the day" ends up being a pro, will I be punished forever?
Again, not knocking Fargo, trying to understand.
Also I do not consider "sandbagging" as an issue in this league. I have played and been around it for many years and know most of the players.


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When asked by a fellow player how he could once play for millions and now be playing for such small stakes, Dandolos supposedly replied "Hey, it's action, isn't it?"

Last edited by poolpro2; 11-23-2018 at 09:55 PM. Reason: clarification
  
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11-24-2018, 07:38 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by poolpro2 View Post
First I want to state, I like the Fargo system.
Almost two years ago I beat a guy that won the tournament I was in. It was the first round and we both played bad.
I did make it to the top ten in a field of 79.
I have not really competed since then for medical reasons.
My Fargo has gone up over this time because people I beat have gotten better.
I am a 5 in our TAP league, yet many of our 6's are 20-30 points lower. in Fargo ratings.
If some one I beat "back in the day" ends up being a pro, will I be punished forever?
Again, not knocking Fargo, trying to understand.
Also I do not consider "sandbagging" as an issue in this league. I have played and been around it for many years and know most of the players.
It is actually a misconception that a player's rating goes up because former opponents improve. Sure you can concoct hypothetical scenarios where this is a thing. But in reality it isn't.

Imagine a situation like yours, where you played, say, 8 matches in a tournament a few years ago and got a preliminary rating of, say 550. And now, two years later, without you playing, your preliminary rating is 600. Does this mean my opponents got better? No, it doesn't. It means FargoRate understands better how they play.

Let's dig in

Say you played 8 matches and had the following scores

6 - 3 against a 450 with 500 games in the system
6 - 3 against a 400 with 500 games in the system
6 - 3 against a 500 with 500 games in the system
6 - 3 against a 450 with 50 games in the system
3 - 6 against a ??? with 0 games in the system
6 - 2 against a ??? with 0 games in the system
5 - 6 against a ??? with 0 games in the system
6 - 4 against a ??? with 0 games in the system

For the first 3 matches you were 18-9 against opponents averaging 450--so that's you playing at 550 speed. The next match you also performed at 550 speed, but the system would not count this as much because it has a weaker understanding of how that opponent plays. The next four matches are ignored because the system has no basis to assess your wins and losses. But it still remembers these games.

As time goes on these opponent ratings drift a little, but the major effect is the system starts to understand how those opponents play, all of them, and finally is able to interpret those games you played before.


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11-24-2018, 07:50 AM

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Originally Posted by lorider View Post
My Fargo rate...apa and bcapl handicaps all fall in line with what dd Dave has listed
My fargorate is considerably higher than my Billiard University results. I guess I find ways to win that BU doesn't test.

JC

Last edited by JC; 11-24-2018 at 07:53 AM.
  
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11-24-2018, 08:05 AM

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Originally Posted by JC View Post
My fargorate is considerably higher than my Billiard University results. I guess I find ways to win that BU doesn't test.

JC
This is completely understandable to me. The BU test picked a wide range of various ball setups and leave scenarios to test, but in a real match, not all of those scenarios would even come up in some matches. You excel more at the scenarios that actually come up in your games for your style of play. You may dislike certain positional shots, so you will simply rarely leave yourself in those situations in a real game. Rather, you will get position on your next shots with scenarios that you feel you will be able to get on the next ball with a much higher success rate.

While the BU test likely does test all of the important skills, I think that each of the different shots would need to be weighted differently to actually match up with the skills needed to win matches for each player's style and how often those shots even come up for a particular player. Because this is extremely difficult do, it's likely that the BU test results and someone's Fargo Rating will likely never completely match up.


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11-24-2018, 08:51 AM

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Originally Posted by Get_A_Grip View Post
This is completely understandable to me. The BU test picked a wide range of various ball setups and leave scenarios to test, but in a real match, not all of those scenarios would even come up in some matches. You excel more at the scenarios that actually come up in your games for your style of play. You may dislike certain positional shots, so you will simply rarely leave yourself in those situations in a real game. Rather, you will get position on your next shots with scenarios that you feel you will be able to get on the next ball with a much higher success rate.

While the BU test likely does test all of the important skills, I think that each of the different shots would need to be weighted differently to actually match up with the skills needed to win matches for each player's style and how often those shots even come up for a particular player. Because this is extremely difficult do, it's likely that the BU test results and someone's Fargo Rating will likely never completely match up.
When I did my BU fundamental tests I had a fair number of misses on the cue ball control drills that were just outside the boxes. Shots that in a game if you are approaching the shape zone properly would be just fine. This was the biggest drag on my BU score. It was enough to keep me from being eligible for the harder second test which was also a negative overall. It's all just a good estimate and ultimately is settled on the green right?
  
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11-25-2018, 03:48 PM

I just don't think anyone with a fargorate of 650 or above should really be considered a semi pro.
  
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11-25-2018, 04:59 PM

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Originally Posted by 9BallKY View Post
I just don't think anyone with a fargorate of 650 or above should really be considered a semi pro.
I've always heard that starting at a Fargo Rating of 700 is considered pro speed. I am personally fine with a 650 being considered semi-pro speed. I play with someone at a 650, and while he is a strong player, calling him pro speed to me doesn't seem quite right.



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