APA scenario

dabarbr · Nov 18, 2013

This happened a little while back. Playing in the finals of a regional where the winner gets the trip to Vegas for the Nationals.

Two ladies are playing, a level three vs a level two. It's a race to 3 for the level three and a race to two for the level 2. Both players are on the hill, each needing one game for the win.

The level three is shooting on the eight and the level two has two balls left on the table. The level three shoots and misses the eight but scratches. The level two retrieves the cue ball from the tray and shoots and makes one of her balls but then misses the other ball. She then goes to sit down. While sitting someone informs her that her opponent lost the game already when she scratched.

She then gets up and stops her opponent from shooting while she gets the tournament director. He come over and confirms with the level three player that she indeed did scratch while shooting at the eight. He ponders the information and then decides that since the level two shot a ball in after the scratch that the game is to be played over. It is played over and the level three wins.
Was this the right decision?

rookiepsu · Nov 18, 2013

Worst ruling ever. Of course that's not correct. The match was over. You can go over and do the polka on top of the table at that point if you want.

justadub · Nov 18, 2013

Doesn't seem to be correct to me.

I find it odd that no one watching said anything once it occurred...

CB Jones · Nov 18, 2013

Seems to me the match was over as soon as the SL3 scratched on the 8. Shouldn't matter what happened after that. My question would be why the SL2's captain/scorekeeper didn't tell her the match was over.

WoodyMPW · Nov 18, 2013

Of course not. Scratched on the eight. Game over.
This isn't a case of shooting the wrong stripes/solids and waiting to call the foul.

I find it odd a team winning a regional and going to vegas didn't jump up and cheer after the scratch.

Jude Rosenstock · Nov 18, 2013

CB Jones said:
Seems to me the match was over as soon as the SL3 scratched on the 8. Shouldn't matter what happened after that. My question would be why the SL2's captain/scorekeeper didn't tell her the match was over.

The problem is, it's not a team-match. This is an individual match where no coaching is permitted whatsoever. This makes for a far more complex ruling, something the APA has done little to address.

The problem is, although the s/l 3 should have lost the game the moment she scratched on the 8, the s/l 2 was not allowed to receive ANY information about the game from a spectator. Taken to another level, what if the s/l 2 has a friend instructing her on the rules that favor her yet fails to instruct her opponent about the rules? Obviously, the s/l 2 is receiving help. As well, these matches this s/l 2 plays in the regionals count toward her rating. She's an s/l 2 because she's not a good pool player but it may also be because she has no knowledge of the rules too.

The bottom line is, the game is inherently tainted. In APA singles, you're expected to be the referee for many of your matches and because of this responsibility, it's important to know the rules. Hell, I'm a shitty dart thrower but if I'm gonna go play in a dart tournament, you better believe I'm gonna read that rulebook beforehand.

TheNewSharkster · Nov 18, 2013

Who cares how many shots were taken after the scratch on the 8ball? The game had already ended. I do not understand how anybody could making that ruling

Culinarytracker · Nov 18, 2013

Jude Rosenstock said:
The problem is, it's not a team-match. This is an individual match where no coaching is permitted whatsoever

The game was over. Nothing left to coach... There are no longer players involved in a match.

dabarbr · Nov 18, 2013

Jude Rosenstock said:
The problem is, it's not a team-match. This is an individual match where no coaching is permitted whatsoever. This makes for a far more complex ruling, something the APA has done little to address.

The problem is, although the s/l 3 should have lost the game the moment she scratched on the 8, the s/l 2 was not allowed to receive ANY information about the game from a spectator. Taken to another level, what if the s/l 2 has a friend instructing her on the rules that favor her yet fails to instruct her opponent about the rules? Obviously, the s/l 2 is receiving help. As well, these matches this s/l 2 plays in the regionals count toward her rating. She's an s/l 2 because she's not a good pool player but it may also be because she has no knowledge of the rules too.

The bottom line is, the game is inherently tainted. In APA singles, you're expected to be the referee for many of your matches and because of this responsibility, it's important to know the rules. Hell, I'm a shitty dart thrower but if I'm gonna go play in a dart tournament, you better believe I'm gonna read that rulebook beforehand.

You are correct in that it was a singles event, not a team event.

stljohnny · Nov 18, 2013

WoodyMPW said:
Of course not. Scratched on the eight. Game over.
This isn't a case of shooting the wrong stripes/solids and waiting to call the foul.

I find it odd a team winning a regional and going to vegas didn't jump up and cheer after the scratch.

This - absolutely this. Heck, we had teams do this on a weekly basis when it meant the win for the night. For a chance to go to Vegas, the whole room should've jumped up with emotions (bad or good).

rookiepsu · Nov 18, 2013

Jude Rosenstock said:
The problem is, it's not a team-match. This is an individual match where no coaching is permitted whatsoever. This makes for a far more complex ruling, something the APA has done little to address.

The problem is, although the s/l 3 should have lost the game the moment she scratched on the 8, the s/l 2 was not allowed to receive ANY information about the game from a spectator. Taken to another level, what if the s/l 2 has a friend instructing her on the rules that favor her yet fails to instruct her opponent about the rules? Obviously, the s/l 2 is receiving help. As well, these matches this s/l 2 plays in the regionals count toward her rating. She's an s/l 2 because she's not a good pool player but it may also be because she has no knowledge of the rules too.

The bottom line is, the game is inherently tainted. In APA singles, you're expected to be the referee for many of your matches and because of this responsibility, it's important to know the rules. Hell, I'm a shitty dart thrower but if I'm gonna go play in a dart tournament, you better believe I'm gonna read that rulebook beforehand.

Almost every time I play a match, if I play last, I stay on the table and practice afterwards. So you're saying that my practicing afterwards should be ruled a continuation of the game? And if I'm out of timeouts in that last game that is now over, no one on my team can tell me to stop shooting. What happens if a teammate comes to the table with me and starts shooting balls? Is that a BIH foul for the opposing-team player for the game that is already over? Does it get re-racked? It seems unfair not to re-rack if the balls have changed position. If one of my teammates comes up and fires in the opposing-player's suit and then the 8-ball, does he/she get credit for that rack? Conversely, if someone scratches on the 8 again after the match is over, how is that scored? Does it double the loss or negate the loss? So many questions.

madhatter44 · Nov 18, 2013

Game over on the scratch on the 8.light out in the refs head.

whammo57 · Nov 18, 2013

dabarbr said:
This happened a little while back. Playing in the finals of a regional where the winner gets the trip to Vegas for the Nationals.

Two ladies are playing, a level three vs a level two. It's a race to 3 for the level three and a race to two for the level 2. Both players are on the hill, each needing one game for the win.

The level three is shooting on the eight and the level two has two balls left on the table. The level three shoots and misses the eight but scratches. The level two retrieves the cue ball from the tray and shoots and makes one of her balls but then misses the other ball. She then goes to sit down. While sitting someone informs her that her opponent lost the game already when she scratched.

She then gets up and stops her opponent from shooting while she gets the tournament director. He come over and confirms with the level three player that she indeed did scratch while shooting at the eight. He ponders the information and then decides that since the level two shot a ball in after the scratch that the game is to be played over. It is played over and the level three wins.
Was this the right decision?

bullshit.......... there is nothing in the rules that would let the loser shoot again......... scratch on the 8........... you're out of here......... it doesn't matter if anyone sees it or not

Kim

justadub · Nov 18, 2013

Even tho it was a singles event, the op states that this was the finals, for the trip.

No one was watching? Let alone the LO, or whoever was running the event? Especially with lower level players? And if it was for the trip, why wasn't the LO present?

Bizarre.

TheNewSharkster · Nov 18, 2013

Obviously the ref was not qualified to make the call on that shot. I dont see this as being a problem with APA because the rules state that if you scratch on the 8ball you lose.

krupa · Nov 18, 2013

worst. ruling. ever.

Jude Rosenstock · Nov 18, 2013

rookiepsu said:
Almost every time I play a match, if I play last, I stay on the table and practice afterwards. So you're saying that my practicing afterwards should be ruled a continuation of the game? And if I'm out of timeouts in that last game that is now over, no one on my team can tell me to stop shooting. What happens if a teammate comes to the table with me and starts shooting balls? Is that a BIH foul for the opposing-team player for the game that is already over? Does it get re-racked? It seems unfair not to re-rack if the balls have changed position. If one of my teammates comes up and fires in the opposing-player's suit and then the 8-ball, does he/she get credit for that rack? Conversely, if someone scratches on the 8 again after the match is over, how is that scored? Does it double the loss or negate the loss? So many questions.

Look, I'm not an APA referee, owner or anything. I have ZERO interest in the outcome of the OP's question nor do I really care. I'm simply telling you how the APA works.

Now, for the record, the OP didn't say she was "practicing". I'm under the assumption she didn't realize she won and I'm telling you, it's against the rules for anyone to tell her.

Regarding team play, the team is allowed to be involved in referee duties which would pretty-much eliminate all of your questions. Seriously, this is a scenario that only occurs when you have an absolute beginner who has little knowledge of the rules playing in singles matches.

Jude Rosenstock · Nov 18, 2013

Culinarytracker said:
The game was over. Nothing left to coach... There are no longer players involved in a match.

The problem is, there has to be an acknowledgement that the game is actually over. That didn't happen. Once an outside party gets involved, another rule is broken. I'm not saying it's right. I'm simply stating the logic behind such a ruling. It would be wise if the APA really came-up with a rulebook that was better worded and more encompassing. I know they feel obligated to keep it simple for the sake of beginners but it's clear there many holes that need to be addressed.

Wanna see a good one? Go to Fouls 10.a. Love the wording there.

KMRUNOUT · Nov 18, 2013

dabarbr said:
This happened a little while back. Playing in the finals of a regional where the winner gets the trip to Vegas for the Nationals.

Two ladies are playing, a level three vs a level two. It's a race to 3 for the level three and a race to two for the level 2. Both players are on the hill, each needing one game for the win.

The level three is shooting on the eight and the level two has two balls left on the table. The level three shoots and misses the eight but scratches. The level two retrieves the cue ball from the tray and shoots and makes one of her balls but then misses the other ball. She then goes to sit down. While sitting someone informs her that her opponent lost the game already when she scratched.

She then gets up and stops her opponent from shooting while she gets the tournament director. He come over and confirms with the level three player that she indeed did scratch while shooting at the eight. He ponders the information and then decides that since the level two shot a ball in after the scratch that the game is to be played over. It is played over and the level three wins.
Was this the right decision?

Of course not. There was no longer any game to rule on. The game ended on the scratch. This person does not know what they are doing. I certainly hope this isn't a League Operator. It's sad to hear things like this. APA corporate should decend on something like this and CRUSH it, because it's things like this that ruin the reputation of this league.

KMRUNOUT

rookiepsu · Nov 18, 2013

Jude Rosenstock said:
Look, I'm not an APA referee, owner or anything. I have ZERO interest in the outcome of the OP's question nor do I really care. I'm simply telling you how the APA works.

Now, for the record, the OP didn't say she was "practicing". I'm under the assumption she didn't realize she won and I'm telling you, it's against the rules for anyone to tell her.

Regarding team play, the team is allowed to be involved in referee duties which would pretty-much eliminate all of your questions. Seriously, this is a scenario that only occurs when you have an absolute beginner who has little knowledge of the rules playing in singles matches.

That's great except that it's not how the APA works and was a terrible, completely incorrect ruling.

APA scenario

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knowledge > execution. :(

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