Is it possible to throw an object ball? Nope

M

mohrt

Student of the Game
Silver Member
Visiting Ron Vitello this weekend, I learned of something I did not believe at first. Can an object ball be thrown? I've always assumed "of course", as just about any book you read explains how to throw a ball. You put spin on the cueball, it strikes the object ball, transferring the spin and the object ball moves off its natural course. However, Ron claims it is impossible to throw an object ball. :confused:

Firstly, we are not talking about frozen balls, they can be thrown all day. What we are talking about specifically: a cueball striking an object ball, forcing/throwing the object ball along a different path by transferring spin from the cueball to the object ball. This cannot be done, says Ron. You are cutting the ball in every time, either by deflection or subconsiously aiming at a cut.

You don't believe either? Try setting up a shot that requires a slight cut to the pocket. Strike the cueball straight into the object ball, such that the cueball stops *dead*, attempt to "throw" the ball into the pocket. One of two things will happen: the cueball stops dead and the object ball moves straight forward (no throw) missing the pocket, or the cueball drifts/stuns to the side and the object ball goes toward the pocket (you just cut the ball in, no throw involved!)

It still seems odd, but I couldn't prove him wrong.
 
M

mohrt

Student of the Game
Silver Member
jsp said:
Here's an experiment to test this claim.

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=135285

(See, I can take it to the table and perform an actual controlled experiment to prove/disprove the validity of a claim...if I felt there really was a need. :thumbup:)
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I did the same thing... I placed a blocking ball to be certain it was impossible to cut the ball to the pocket. I had no choice but to hit the object ball dead in the face (or hit the blocker.) I was not able to get the object ball into the pocket. Specifically I setup a shot where the object ball was 3-4 diamonds away from the pocket, and need about 1/2 diamond of throw.
 
M

mohrt

Student of the Game
Silver Member
the420trooper said:
So, applying spin on a given shot will have no impact on the path the object ball takes?

Cool...that's gonna make this game a lot easier. :D



:rolleyes:
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... if they are not frozen together, or to other balls, that is the idea. Of course spin will impact the direction the cueball takes off a rail. Admittedly I did not test shots requiring very slight amounts of throw, I was trying 1/2 diamond from up-table, a pretty reasonable type of throw shot. But the claim was "you cannot throw an object ball." :shrug:
 
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Patrick Johnson

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
mohrt said:
Visiting Ron Vitello this weekend, I learned of something I did not believe at first. Can an object ball be thrown? I've always assumed "of course", as just about any book you read explains how to throw a ball. You put spin on the cueball, it strikes the object ball, transferring the spin and the object ball moves off its natural course. However, Ron claims it is impossible to throw an object ball. :confused:
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Ron's wrong. It's simple to prove (see jsp's post).

Try setting up a shot that requires a slight cut to the pocket. Strike the cueball straight into the object ball, such that the cueball stops *dead*, attempt to "throw" the ball into the pocket. One of two things will happen: the cueball stops dead and the object ball moves straight forward (no throw) missing the pocket, or the cueball drifts/stuns to the side and the object ball goes toward the pocket (you just cut the ball in, no throw involved!)
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You're not taking into account the principle of "equal and opposite reactions". When the CB throws the OB sideways it also throws itself in the opposite direction, so it's expected that the CB will drift to the side.

When the OB goes straight and the CB stops dead, it's because you actually hit the OB on a slight cut angle and the throw straightened it out. The CB, instead of caroming off the OB because of the cut angle, was thrown just enough in the opposite direction to stop it dead. This is also predicted, if the cut angle and the throw exactly cancel each other out. In other words, it's an alternative way to hit a stop shot.

pj
chgo
 
M

mohrt

Student of the Game
Silver Member
Patrick Johnson said:
You're not taking into account the principle of "equal and opposite reactions". When the CB throws the OB sideways it also throws itself in the opposite direction, so it's expected that the CB will drift to the side.
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Interesting. So with this in mind you are saying: setting up a blocker ball, I should be able to strike the object ball dead in the face and throw the ball in, and the cueball should drift behind the blocker ball. (assuming the blocker ball is at least a ball width in front of the object ball.) Is that correct?
 
Blue Hog ridr

Blue Hog ridr

World Famous Fisherman.
Silver Member
My Ex, in all her glorious post natal depression, threw a heavy drink glass at my head one morning. Does that count?

Then the SWAT team came for a visit, but thats for a different thread.

I do however know what a buck feels like on opening day tho. Never had so many guns pointed at me all at once.

Sorry, back to regular programing.

99 Critical shots in pool dedicates a few pages to Throw Shots.
I have practiced them, and have made shots that I considered throw shots due to a blocking object ball.
Maybe I was just cutting a difficult shot in but I will just pretend that I can utilize throw shots.
 
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Patrick Johnson

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
mohrt said:
Interesting. So with this in mind you are saying: setting up a blocker ball, I should be able to strike the object ball dead in the face and throw the ball in, and the cueball should drift behind the blocker ball. (assuming the blocker ball is at least a ball width in front of the object ball.) Is that correct?
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Yep.

Not necessarily "in" or "behind the blocker ball", but definitely both to some degree.

pj
chgo
 
cleary

cleary

Honestly, I'm a liar.
Silver Member
I fully believe you can throw an object ball.

That said, using english will alter the path of your cueball and hit the object ball in a different contact point and that could cause you do think the ball was thrown MORE than it was.

However, I 100000% believe you can in fact throw the object ball using english. Using high speed cameras, this has been proved before. Spin is transferred and it changes the path of the object ball.
 
Johnnyt

Johnnyt

Burn all jump cues
Silver Member
and the more spin and the softer you hit the ball the more it will throw. You can put spin on the CB yet hit it so hard that it won't throw much or at all. Johnnyt
 
Kickin' Chicken

Kickin' Chicken

Kick Shot Aficionado
Silver Member
So then, when I 'gear-in' a ball, I really didn't?

Is this like the forest/trees thing, because I still think there's a sound. :thumbup:

Best,
Brian kc
 
Johnnyt

Johnnyt

Burn all jump cues
Silver Member
Philthepockets said:
Aahh a world without friction :D
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LOL. and if the balls are new and really polished well you will get very little throw compared to hitting a dirty ball the same place and speed. There really is a lot to consider when aiming a cut-shot. Johnnyt
 
M

mohrt

Student of the Game
Silver Member
cleary said:
I fully believe you can throw an object ball.

That said, using english will alter the path of your cueball and hit the object ball in a different contact point and that could cause you do think the ball was thrown MORE than it was.

However, I 100000% believe you can in fact throw the object ball using english. Using high speed cameras, this has been proved before. Spin is transferred and it changes the path of the object ball.
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... and this is what logic would tell you, which is why I was puzzled by the claim. I wasn't able to quickly come up with a shot refute it either. I'll inquire more about what he meant!
 
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randyg

randyg

www.randygpool.com
Silver Member
Johnnyt said:
and the more spin and the softer you hit the ball the more it will throw. You can put spin on the CB yet hit it so hard that it won't throw much or at all. Johnnyt
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I thought that more spin would break friction faster producing less throw. I think that a slow spinning cue ball is more likely to produce throw. I agree about the softer speeds.

randyg
 
M

mohrt

Student of the Game
Silver Member
Patrick Johnson said:
Yep.

Not necessarily "in" or "behind the blocker ball", but definitely both to some degree.

pj
chgo
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So maybe the truth of the matter is that the throw (especially with clean balls) is much less pronounced as many may presume it to be. To "throw" a ball heavily will probably combine some cut to the ball as well.
 
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