Arm past perpendicular at address, common with the greats of the past?

Snooker Theory · Mar 23, 2020

Seemed some of the players from past held the cue past perpendicular at address on some shots, is that accurate?
Watching a few old videos that are available, kind of hard to tell(at least in the ones I watched), and with the pictures being of a stationary player who is maybing posing, maybe already contacted cueball and following through, so not sure if accurate to go off pics.
I know some of the old time guys liked the slip stroke, any connection? Seen some on here say Willie had a slip stroke, some said he didn't.

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Bob Jewett · Mar 23, 2020

Some, like Mosconi, used a slip stroke from that position on power shots.

But you are right in that a lot of the old-timers, which for me are the players of the 1970s and 1980s, held the cue about a hand ahead of perpendicular at impact. The first time I really noticed someone who was back in the "right" position was in 1980 when I first saw Buddy Hall play.

Cuebuddy · Mar 23, 2020

Does the fact that these four all stood 18” above their cues. Will that make a difference?

Patrick Johnson · Mar 23, 2020

Cuebuddy said:
Does the fact that these four all stood18” above their. He make a difference?

Hmm... could be.

I think the stroke's "natural power" peaks when the forearm is at (or slightly past) perpendicular with the upper arm. With the upper arm slanted down (because of the tall stance), that can only occur after the forearm is perpendicular with the cue.

pj
chgo

JoeyInCali · Mar 23, 2020

A lot of them slipped the grip hand before the final stroke.
And lots of those cues were so forward-balanced.

mikemosconi · Mar 23, 2020

Lots of 14.1 being played here- these guys mostly emphasized control and short distance accuracy because their cue ball control was so good there was not much cb movement or longer shots. Buddy Hall was not a 14.1 guy. He was part of the next pool era here in the U.S.

HyperioN · Mar 23, 2020

Whats also interesting is how low their elbows are in the pictures. Its almost an entirely different way than the modern way of addressing a cue.

Cuebuddy · Mar 23, 2020

Patrick Johnson said:
Hmm... could be.

I think the stroke's "natural power" peaks when the forearm is at (or slightly past) perpendicular with the upper arm. With the upper arm slanted down (because of the tall stance), that can only occur after the forearm is perpendicular with the cue.

pj
chgo

Wow I just looked at my stupid post! Its amazing how bad I type on my phone with sausage fingers.

Cuebuddy>>> needs to proof read.

Snooker Theory · Mar 23, 2020

Not a whole lot of photos on the interwebs of young Willie,

He is stretching out pretty far here.

Snooker Theory · Mar 23, 2020

Another great

Snooker Theory · Mar 23, 2020

Bob Jewett said:
Some, like Mosconi, used a slip stroke from that position on power shots.

But you are right in that a lot of the old-timers, which for me are the players of the 1970s and 1980s, held the cue about a hand ahead of perpendicular at impact. The first time I really noticed someone who was back in the "right" position was in 1980 when I first saw Buddy Hall play.

With the slip stroke, that hand length forward probably gets close to perpendicular. Do you know if the other guys I posted of such as Boston shorty and Worst used the slip stroke?

Cuebuddy said:
Does the fact that these four all stood 18” above their cues. Will that make a difference?

Seems a great observation

Patrick Johnson said:
Hmm... could be.

I think the stroke's "natural power" peaks when the forearm is at (or slightly past) perpendicular with the upper arm. With the upper arm slanted down (because of the tall stance), that can only occur after the forearm is perpendicular with the cue.

pj
chgo

Could you further expand on what you mean by natural power.

JoeyInCali said:
A lot of them slipped the grip hand before the final stroke.
And lots of those cues were so forward-balanced.

And heavier too yes?

mikemosconi said:
Lots of 14.1 being played here- these guys mostly emphasized control and short distance accuracy because their cue ball control was so good there was not much cb movement or longer shots. Buddy Hall was not a 14.1 guy. He was part of the next pool era here in the U.S.

That is an interesting point.

HyperioN said:
Whats also interesting is how low their elbows are in the pictures. Its almost an entirely different way than the modern way of addressing a cue.

My back is envious, I'd be lying if I said my snooker stance looks remotely as comfortable.

Cuebuddy said:
Wow I just looked at my stupid post! Its amazing how bad I type on my phone with sausage fingers.

Cuebuddy>>> needs to proof read.

Think we all do that from time to time, we knew what you meant.

Poolhall60561 · Mar 23, 2020

Joe Davis

Snooker Theory · Mar 23, 2020

Poolhall60561 said:
Joe Davis

View attachment 544471

The man I modeled my stance and stroke around, even bought a bowtie and vest so I could feel the cue running under my tie knot, I was like 11-13 years old at the time. Funny thing, I never knew he was blind in one eye till joining this site. As a youngster, I thought I had practiced the wrong techniques too long, so started playing lefthanded copying Joe to the tee, worked better cause I had my dominant eye over the cue.

Patrick Johnson · Mar 24, 2020

Snooker Theory said:
Could you further expand on what you mean by natural power.

I probably should have said natural speed. I mean the point in the stroke where speed normally peaks, based on typical arm physiology.

pj
chgo

ShootingArts · Mar 24, 2020

even today

Even today you will notice forearms well past perpendicular when addressing the cue and few if any using the slipstroke.

With a higher stance it is almost impossible to hold the elbow in place for a pendulum stroke so one involving the whole arm is more natural. Easier on your whole body too, especially in those twelve hour plus gambling matches or eighteen hour days playing tournament pool.

Willie used three or four different strokes fairly often, could probably pull a few more out of his bag if they were needed. The same was true of most of the other top pro's of his era.

Hu

maha · Mar 24, 2020

the game wasnt about power then either. now its all nine ball.

still as in all sports all the greats have different swings, kicks, etc.
it is only about doing what allows you as an individual to repeat your stroke as perfectly as you can. and that comes from muscle memory.

ChrisinNC · Mar 24, 2020

ShootingArts said:
Even today you will notice forearms well past perpendicular when addressing the cue and few if any using the slipstroke.

With a higher stance it is almost impossible to hold the elbow in place for a pendulum stroke so one involving the whole arm is more natural. Easier on your whole body too, especially in those twelve hour plus gambling matches or eighteen hour days playing tournament pool.

Willie used three or four different strokes fairly often, could probably pull a few more out of his bag if they were needed. The same was true of most of the other top pro's of his era.

Hu

Josh Roberts seems to be one of the modern players that holds his forearm forward of perpendicular when the tip is addressing the back of the cue ball. Of course his specialty is one pocket and bar tables - both of which don’t require power strokes as much as nine ball on a big table

Patrick Johnson · Mar 24, 2020

ShootingArts said:
Even today you will notice forearms well past perpendicular when addressing the cue and few if any using the slipstroke.

I notice it in breaking.

pj
chgo

Straightpool_99 · Mar 24, 2020

The theory that is being preached is usually to hit the ball at exactly perpendicular. To me it seems it's better to err on the forward side, rather than the other side, since hitting behind perpendicular will destroy both accuracy and feel in my opinion. Being ever so slightly forward does very little harm IMO, but being behind can be catastrophic.

If you watch the old carom players it's especially common to be forward, but then again they weren't exactly textbook in other areas either...

Being forward of perpendicular at cueball striking IMO helps with feel, since you can better feel the weight of the cue. It's hard to explain but try being behind-, then exactly at- and then forward of perpendicular and you'll know what I mean. That being said, I stay and perpendicular, since it has other advantages. For very close work in straight rail, I'm forward, though.

Buster8001 · Mar 25, 2020

Just depends on how close you are to the balance of your cue. The balance.

THE BALANCE! According to Charlie...lol

Seems the majority of the 'ol timers were taught to hold their cues at the balance

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJnrQBLTi_k

Plus with the equipment of the day - heavy cues, slow cloth, different balls - players had to invent things like the slip-stroke to use more of their their swing, or get more out of their stroke for the power shots. My grandfather had a slip-stroke. It's a thing of beauty when done correctly. He was well past perpendicular.

Arm past perpendicular at address, common with the greats of the past?

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