Improvement....can we improve with coaching, hard work and discipline?

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stockbob55

Registered
I ask this question after watching several live stream episodes of James Aranas practicing at Roy's basement.
Drill after drill for hours and hours with a coach.

He is still looking for improvement even at his level (Fargo 806).
He is relentlessly looking for a minute edge that will make a difference.

Some back ground.....
- "People" say that you either have it or you don't, I assume that they mean some kind of natural ability that is obvious early on.

- I have also seen players improve gradually over many years becoming a good player later in life.

- Then there are the players who suddenly jump up the ranks after changing some fundamental in their game like vision, alignment or mental perspective.

I am aware that large gains are more difficult for better players and easier for the novice.

So can we improve with coaching, hard work and discipline?

And if yes what would be a realistic expectation given maximum effort?
 
BC21

BC21

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The late Tony Ellen was a top ranked player back in the 90's. I remember him saying that in order to keep up with the more naturally-talented players he must continually work and practice on his game.

There was a local player here that didn't start playing pool until after 50 or something like that. Within a couple years he became a very strong player. His name was Roger Whitey. He passed away about 4 or 5 years ago. I played in a ring game with him and Danny Brown one night, and I'll tell you it was a bit rediculous to see how well he could play, and to know that I'd been playing the game probably 20 years longer.
 
S

Scott Lee

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
stockbob55...Yes, with the right kind of instruction, and the right amount of disciplined practice, anyone can make serious improvement in their pool game. Will anyone who does this become a professional level skilled player? Of course not...and most of them have no desire or illusion to that end. That said, we've been improving the pool games of tens of thousands of players, of all skill levels, (even pros) for the last 30-50 years! Provided you do things the right way, working with the right instructor, on the right things, the right way, anyone can improve. How much is up to the individual. You get out of it, what you put into it! Certainly you can take instruction out the wazzoo, but you still have to practice correctly, and you still have to go out and get into competition to test yourself. :D

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

stockbob55 said:
I ask this question after watching several live stream episodes of James Aranas practicing at Roy's basement.
Drill after drill for hours and hours with a coach.

He is still looking for improvement even at his level (Fargo 806).
He is relentlessly looking for a minute edge that will make a difference.

Some back ground.....
- "People" say that you either have it or you don't, I assume that they mean some kind of natural ability that is obvious early on.

- I have also seen players improve gradually over many years becoming a good player later in life.

- Then there are the players who suddenly jump up the ranks after changing some fundamental in their game like vision, alignment or mental perspective.

I am aware that large gains are more difficult for better players and easier for the novice.

So can we improve with coaching, hard work and discipline?

And if yes what would be a realistic expectation given maximum effort?
Click to expand...
 
Bob Jewett

Bob Jewett

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stockbob55 said:
....So can we improve with coaching, hard work and discipline?

And if yes what would be a realistic expectation given maximum effort?
Click to expand...
I'm puzzled by these questions.

This is a forum for instructors to answer questions. I think that anyone who honestly gives instruction must feel their instruction is useful and helps students to improve. I think that nearly covers the first question.

As for the second, there is no useful answer. It depends immensely on the individual. Some will remain at a level where they rarely run a whole rack. Others will become very accomplished players. And that can be with or without an instructor's help for both cases.

Very few people put in maximum effort at anything they do over an extended period of time. I think it is not useful to guess how the typical person might do if they did something they never do. I would consider a serious level of effort but not maximum to be 70 hours per week at the table or otherwise working on your game. What would you consider to be maximum effort?
 
measureman

measureman

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I strongly believe in natural ability.
There was a kid in N.J. in the early '60s that started playing at 14.
At 16 he ran over a 100 balls and was good for 30 or 40 ball runs here and there.
I've seen other players play and practice for decades and still struggle to run a rack of any game.
 
F

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Attitude, Attitude, Attitude.

Stop thinking about how today's practice is going to affect your future and stop wondering when you will get better. Stay in the present. Focus on what you're doing today. Stop worrying about tomorrow. Take it one day at a time and enjoy the process. Let go of your expectations.

Believe in yourself. If you constantly berate yourself for missing, you will fail.

You can practice 100 hours per week but if your head is in the wrong place, you will not progress.
 
BC21

BC21

https://www.playpoolbetter.com
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FranCrimi said:
Attitude, Attitude, Attitude.

Stop thinking about how today's practice is going to affect your future and stop wondering when you will get better. Stay in the present. Focus on what you're doing today. Stop worrying about tomorrow. Take it one day at a time and enjoy the process. Let go of your expectations.

Believe in yourself. If you constantly berate yourself for missing, you will fail.

You can practice 100 hours per week but if your head is in the wrong place, you will not progress.
Click to expand...

Excellent advice. An hour or so of quality practice every day is a much more effective learning method than burning yourself out 4 or 5 hours a day. Same goes for anything that you are trying to learn or master -- two or three short and purposeful study sessions of 20 to 30 minutes throughout the day leads to quicker learning and better retention.
 
S

stockbob55

Registered
Bob Jewett said:
I'm puzzled by these questions.

This is a forum for instructors to answer questions. I think that anyone who honestly gives instruction must feel their instruction is useful and helps students to improve. I think that nearly covers the first question.

As for the second, there is no useful answer. It depends immensely on the individual. Some will remain at a level where they rarely run a whole rack. Others will become very accomplished players. And that can be with or without an instructor's help for both cases.

Very few people put in maximum effort at anything they do over an extended period of time. I think it is not useful to guess how the typical person might do if they did something they never do. I would consider a serious level of effort but not maximum to be 70 hours per week at the table or otherwise working on your game. What would you consider to be maximum effort?
Click to expand...

Thanks for the reply Bob.
Don't be puzzled, I know that instructors believe that their coaching is helping students to improve and most good coaches are doing just that.

I was trying to get a discussion going about improvement expectations and limits. I was not challenging the efficacy of coaching by any means.

Students need realistic goals and realistic expectations.

I agree that 70 hours a week on the pool table with effective guidance would be a serious level of effort and commitment and should produce results for some players but not all.
 
C

Cameron Smith

is kind of hungry...
Silver Member
measureman said:
I strongly believe in natural ability.
There was a kid in N.J. in the early '60s that started playing at 14.
At 16 he ran over a 100 balls and was good for 30 or 40 ball runs here and there.
I've seen other players play and practice for decades and still struggle to run a rack of any game.
Click to expand...

Kids and teenagers tend to pick up skills very quickly and easily. Much more easily than adults. I’m a much better guitar player than I am a pool/snooker player and I started guitar at 14 and was playing quite well by 17 without ever doing practice routines. I just played a lot and was always trying to learn something new and more challenging while also having high standards (a lot of people can fumble through eruption, but few can play note for note). By comparison as an adult I structure my snooker practice quite a bit.

I believe in natural ability as well to some extent, but I think for something like pool the natural ability comes from what’s between your ears. Natural players tend to just get on with playing and learning without obsessing about minute details. They also are great observers and learners. They don’t spend decades playing the wrong shots and making the same mistakes. The rest of it has a lot to do with circumstance. Having the right opportunities to practice, the right mentors etc.
 
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Scott Lee

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
stockbob55...70 hours a week on the pool table is unrealistic for anyone but a pro player...and even they don't, by in large, spend that much time either! While a pro may spend 10+ hours a day at the table (probably not), they are playing, not doing disciplined practice. We teach our students to try to commit to 1-2 hours a day (if possible), for a disciplined regimen of practice, that is geared to both improving their stroke, and expanding their playing knowledge as well. Play as many hours as you like...but our brains are not geared to the kind of progressive, disciplined practice that we're talking about for more than an hour or two.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

stockbob55 said:
.

Students need realistic goals and realistic expectations.

I agree that 70 hours a week on the pool table with effective guidance would be a serious level of effort and commitment and should produce results for some players but not all.
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
BC21

BC21

https://www.playpoolbetter.com
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Scott Lee said:
stockbob55...70 hours a week on the pool table is unrealistic for anyone but a pro player...and even they don't, by in large, spend that much time either! While a pro may spend 10+ hours a day at the table (probably not), they are playing, not doing disciplined practice. We teach our students to try to commit to 1-2 hours a day (if possible), for a disciplined regimen of practice, that is geared to both improving their stroke, and expanding their playing knowledge as well. Play as many hours as you like...but our brains are not geared to the kind of progressive, disciplined practice that we're talking about for more than an hour or two.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
Click to expand...

So true. But even a full hour of disciplined practice may be too much of a learning chunk. Studies have shown that when it comes to effective learning and skill optimization, long practice/study sessions do not provide the best results when compared to shorter lessons spaced out throughout the day. In other words, it's better to practice diligently with 100% focus for about 20 or 30 minutes two or three times per day than to practice for a straight hour or two where remaining 100% focused can become a bit challenging. I know this doesn't work so well for players that have to go to the poolhall to practice. But for those with a table at home, try this:

Pick a practice session, something that you know needs attention/improvement. Dedicate a half hour for this session when you get home from work, then stop and go about your normal life. A couple of hours later, maybe after dinner, do another session of 20 to 30 minutes. Later, before going to bed, try to fit in one more session. If you can't squeeze it in, get up early and do a morning session before going to work. You'll be amazed at how much quicker you sharpen your skills.

The key is to stop practicing BEFORE you get bored, before your brain drops the ball. It might be 30min, or it might just be 15min. There should be no set time limit. When you notice a lack of focus creeping in, your done. Come back later, after your brain has had time to rest, and repeat the session again for the same duration.
 
S

Scott Lee

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Yes Brian...I know all about the studies, and agree with them. The student is not practicing the same thing for more than a few minutes, and then moving on to something else. Also, we teach that the hour(s) don't have be all at once...could be 10 minutes here, 15 minutes there, spaced over several hours if desired. Add to the bored, frustrated or even angry...none of which are conducive to good learning. We've been teaching this since you were in diapers! LOL :grin: Good post!

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

BC21 said:
So true. But even a full hour of disciplined practice may be too much of a learning chunk. Studies have shown that when it comes to effective learning and skill optimization, long practice/study sessions do not provide the best results when compared to shorter lessons spaced out throughout the day. In other words, it's better to practice diligently with 100% focus for about 20 or 30 minutes two or three times per day than to practice for a straight hour or two where remaining 100% focused can become a bit challenging. I know this doesn't work so well for players that have to go to the poolhall to practice. But for those with a table at home, try this:

Pick a practice session, something that you know needs attention/improvement. Dedicate a half hour for this session when you get home from work, then stop and go about your normal life. A couple of hours later, maybe after dinner, do another session of 20 to 30 minutes. Later, before going to bed, try to fit in one more session. If you can't squeeze it in, get up early and do a morning session before going to work. You'll be amazed at how much quicker you sharpen your skills.

The key is to stop practicing BEFORE you get bored, before your brain drops the ball. It might be 30min, or it might just be 15min. There should be no set time limit. When you notice a lack of focus creeping in, your done. Come back later, after your brain has had time to rest, and repeat the session again for the same duration.
Click to expand...
 
BC21

BC21

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Scott Lee said:
Yes Brian...I know all about the studies, and agree with them. The student is not practicing the same thing for more than a few minutes, and then moving on to something else. Also, we teach that the hour(s) don't have be all at once...could be 10 minutes here, 15 minutes there, spaced over several hours if desired. Add to the bored, frustrated or even angry...none of which are conducive to good learning. We've been teaching this since you were in diapers! LOL :grin: Good post!

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
Click to expand...

Good to hear, but diapers?? I'm 51...lol. Anyway, I mainly wanted to stress how accurate you were about pros "playing" (not "practicing") for multiple hours straight. That's a good point that a lot of people either ignore or just don't know.
 
B

ballston

Registered
Scott Lee said:
Yes Brian...I know all about the studies, and agree with them. The student is not practicing the same thing for more than a few minutes, and then moving on to something else. Also, we teach that the hour(s) don't have be all at once...could be 10 minutes here, 15 minutes there, spaced over several hours if desired. Add to the bored, frustrated or even angry...none of which are conducive to good learning. We've been teaching this since you were in diapers! LOL :grin: Good post!

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
Click to expand...

OK here's my situation: no table at home which would make possible the short practices interspersed throughout the day. The best place with tables is seven miles away through some of the worst traffic in the country (DC area), only opens at 3:30 and a couple of hours later is filling up with league players claiming the tables. IOW, I only have a couple hours a week to practice, although I play twice a week (APA 8 and 9B; I'm a 5 in both). So how should I organize/what should I work on in my limited practice time? Thanks in advance for any/all suggestions.
 
Bob Jewett

Bob Jewett

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ballston said:
... So how should I organize/what should I work on in my limited practice time? ...
Click to expand...
What is the weakest part of your game? How are your fundamentals? Which shots do you have trouble with often?

Anyone who tries to offer a path forward without knowing where you are now is just guessing. Maybe a first step is to evaluate your game.
 
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