Where the cb hits the rack - interesting visualization method

Vahmurka · Mar 19, 2010

I was watching Stepanov vs Kempter 14.1 at EPC 2010, and had an observation looking at how Martin Kempter approached some of his break shots where he wanted to know exactly where the cue ball was going to enter the rack.

I wasn't familiar with this technique and find it better than the one I used so far - pointing my cue towards the rack through imaginary line from the break ball to the pocket. Really, break balls are usually far enough from the corner to visualize the line exactly, and if we are wrong with our estimation even a little, an inch to the left or to the right is a big difference between hitting top of the ball or bottom. With Kempter's method we have this line "ob-pocket" exactly drawn, and have to visualize only a short one from the ball to the pack. I will try this one from now on.

14-1StraightMan · Mar 19, 2010

Interesting

Very interesting photo. You can clearly see the shadow of the cue on the table lining up the path and the point of contact on the object ball. I would think that lining up the cue ball to the rack after the contact with the object ball would help too.
Here is the thing: If your eyes are not sending the correct point of contact back to your brain and your mechanics are incorrect. You will miss a high % of shots. Now, I know the younger players have "Hawk Eyes" but for us older guys it is best to get your eyes checked at least once a year. Also, it is not a bad idea to take lessons from a certified instructor or to enroll in a billiard school to help with mechanics.

sausage · Mar 19, 2010

i can't find fault with this method. what i've been wondering is how much the cue curves after it hits the break-ball. if you hit the CB with hard center, no curve but not so with follow or draw. the further away your BB is from the rack, the more the CB will curve off that straight line.

Vahmurka · Mar 19, 2010

14-1StraightMan, you are beyond my thoughts over this one. I didn't even notice shadow of the cue until you told that! But frankly I think he does not use shadow but the cue itself. Because table lighting is always different and sometimes you will have such shadow and sometimes you won't have any. While the cue is always there

My point was that if we look from position A and imagine the line from the OB to the pocket we might make slight error resulting in a big misjudge. Look how green line is different from blue

And if we use a cue to get precise impression of a line between the OB and the pocket we visualize only a short line (red) which is easier and thus more effective

BigCat · Mar 19, 2010

Vahmurka said:
I was watching Stepanov vs Kempter 14.1 at EPC 2010, and had an observation looking at how Martin Kempter approached some of his break shots where he wanted to know exactly where the cue ball was going to enter the rack.
View attachment 130198
I wasn't familiar with this technique and find it better than the one I used so far - pointing my cue towards the rack through imaginary line from the break ball to the pocket. Really, break balls are usually far enough from the corner to visualize the line exactly, and if we are wrong with our estimation even a little, an inch to the left or to the right is a big difference between hitting top of the ball or bottom. With Kempter's method we have this line "ob-pocket" exactly drawn, and have to visualize only a short one from the ball to the pack. I will try this one from now on.

Thanks for sharing this. This is a great visual example of this technique and I will definitely try it out.

I am wondering to myself one thing though. Often times when putting extreme high or low english on the cue ball, the path of the cue ball after contacting the break ball can deviate from a perfect tangent line. This prolly needs to be taken into account when using methods like this.

Very interesting stuff.

Thanks again, Vahmurka!

Ray

14-1StraightMan · Mar 19, 2010

Yes, Your Right

Vahmurka, yes you are right about the different types of light over the table. So, the shadow will not work. The cue will, but Sasuage brought it up first and the BigCat hit on it too. About using Low or Hight English will affect the path of the cue ball depending how far the break ball is from the rack and how powerful of stroke a player puts on the shot.

SpiderWebComm · Mar 19, 2010

I learned this from Joe Tucker a few years ago. It's part of what he teaches.

Dave

DogsPlayingPool · Mar 19, 2010

sausage said:
i can't find fault with this method. what i've been wondering is how much the cue curves after it hits the break-ball. if you hit the CB with hard center, no curve but not so with follow or draw. the further away your BB is from the rack, the more the CB will curve off that straight line.

BigCat said:
I am wondering to myself one thing though. Often times when putting extreme high or low english on the cue ball, the path of the cue ball after contacting the break ball can deviate from a perfect tangent line. This prolly needs to be taken into account when using methods like this.

Actually, I think that's the point of the whole thing. Knowing exactly where the cue ball will contact the cluster given stun with no spin can assist you in determining if you might want to use draw/follow or english to change the tangent line so as to hit the rack more where you want to hit it.

14-1StraightMan · Mar 19, 2010

Yes

DogsPlayingPool said:
Actually, I think that's the point of the whole thing. Knowing exactly where the cue ball will contact the cluster given stun with no spin can assist you in determining if you might want to use draw/follow or english to change the tangent line so as to hit the rack more where you want to hit it.

You are never to Old to learn something. You are exactly correct.

sausage · Mar 19, 2010

DPP: yes, that's true but then we get back to the "feel" of the game. how much spin. how slick are the balls. is it humid and the felt "heavy". i think that you can over-think the break.

Vahmurka · Mar 20, 2010

BigCat said:
Often times when putting extreme high or low english on the cue ball, the path of the cue ball after contacting the break ball can deviate from a perfect tangent line. This prolly needs to be taken into account when using methods like this.
Ray

14-1StraightMan said:
You are exactly correct.

nothing to add, I was about to post that we always look for a tangent line from the OB (and the method shown is no exception). How we alter the CB path with high or low, that's another story, but it is again based on the tangent we discovered.

Gerry · Mar 20, 2010

that is a pretty cool aiming method. For years I have just made a right angle with my hand.....like shooting a gun.....it works palm up or down.

rikdee · Mar 20, 2010

sausage said:
DPP: yes, that's true but then we get back to the "feel" of the game. how much spin. how slick are the balls. is it humid and the felt "heavy". i think that you can over-think the break.

Agree. Over thinking often results in play that is too mechanical. Watch the recent vid of Ed Lattimer. He flows along with no mechanical distraction.

Ratta · Mar 20, 2010

This guy is able to shoot each ball- and he s aiming here on the photo just because he s unsure. And if you re unsure you should pay attention on the shot you fear....until your brain tells you *no problem-all ok* ^^. And again-i really don t think that the guy really don t know how to play that breakball. Just under pressure and a bit unsure

DogsPlayingPool · Mar 21, 2010

sausage said:
DPP: yes, that's true but then we get back to the "feel" of the game. how much spin. how slick are the balls. is it humid and the felt "heavy". i think that you can over-think the break.

I agree that thinking too much can be counter productive but I don't think that concerning yourself with where the cue ball will make contact with the rack falls into that category like the other things you mentioned such as slick balls and the humidity.

To me if a player doesn't take this into consideration he is probably not thinking enough.

Hank · Mar 21, 2010

Break ball

You can also use the rack in hand with ease to line up from the ob to the side pack.From a speed of 1--10 what are you guys hitting?Again thanks for making this 14.1 forum my favorite.

sausage · Mar 21, 2010

DogsPlayingPool said:
I agree that thinking too much can be counter productive but I don't think that concerning yourself with where the cue ball will make contact with the rack falls into that category like the other things you mentioned such as slick balls and the humidity.

To me if a player doesn't take this into consideration he is probably not thinking enough.

yes, knowledge is a good thing. in straight pool it must be balanced with rhythm and feel. monsconi emphasized rhythm. when i watch the greatest players run rack after rack, few obsess over the break. all runs will come to an end and no amount of math is going to save us from the inevitable.

DogsPlayingPool · Mar 21, 2010

sausage said:
yes, knowledge is a good thing. in straight pool it must be balanced with rhythm and feel. monsconi emphasized rhythm. when i watch the greatest players run rack after rack, few obsess over the break. all runs will come to an end and no amount of math is going to save us from the inevitable.

That is true. It probably has to do with the fact that 14.1 was pretty much what those guys played most of the time. They could tell at a glance exactly where the cue ball would naturally enter the stack most of the time. But I do believe they paid attention to it even if they didn't have to stop to take measurements. :grin-square:

What I see in the picture posted by the OP is reminiscent of the aiming you see guys do on kick shots sometimes: laying the cue across the table to bisect the angle, counting diamonds with their finger etc. What this guy is doing with the break shot is kind of the same thing.

Of course, maybe it's just a move.

elvicash · Mar 21, 2010

Ratta said:
This guy is able to shoot each ball- and he s aiming here on the photo just because he s unsure. And if you re unsure you should pay attention on the shot you fear....until your brain tells you *no problem-all ok* ^^. And again-i really don t think that the guy really don t know how to play that breakball. Just under pressure and a bit unsure

I have to disagree. I do not believe he is unsure at all, I think he is using the tools he has to make a plan. He has added the cue as a straightedge to show line to pocket so he can easily see the tangent lin and figure out how he needs to alter it to get the balls to break open and allow the cue ball to come out without getitng stuck.

Vahmurka · Mar 21, 2010

elvicash said:
I think he is using the tools he has to make a plan. He has added the cue as a straightedge to show line to pocket so he can easily see the tangent lin and figure out how he needs to alter it to get the balls to break open and allow the cue ball to come out without getitng stuck.

I agree. That's my point of view and the reason I posted that screenshot.

Where the cb hits the rack - interesting visualization method

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