Another ethics thread!

Icon of Sin said:

This is a scenario that happened to me once in a local tourney. Fortunately I caught myself before fouling.

Playing 8ball where if your opponent scratches on the break, its ball in hand behind the line. Any other time, it's ball in hand anywhere. I don't play much 8ball but I knew the rule going into the match.

I'm playing a much stronger opponent and he scratched on the break. I set the cueball down in a spot that is not behind the line because the rule, even though I know it, is not something that comes natural to me. I set the ball down, get down on the shot, take a few practice strokes then suddenly remember the rule and look at my opponent and said "that's behind the line right?" and he just nodded.

So he was going to let me foul. In this specific scenario, would you tell your opponent, or just let them foul?

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When he nods at your question....he’s a bad guy if he then calls the foul.
...looks like entrapment to me.

I rarely play 8-ball...so on a fouled break, where I set the cue ball, you couldn’t get much
farther from the line........my opponent told me....I handed him the cue ball...
....I refuse to let my opponent help me to win....just how I roll.

.



Gentleman's game. In TAP League where I play, you have to let the shooter know or it's not a foul.







.

I've done both, but in 9 ball (never play 8 ball).... informing my opponent he was shooting at the wrong ball at times, and at other times, keeping that to myself and letting them foul. I've also had both happen to me when I was the shooter.

No big deal IMO, just more information for us to learn from.

Is it specifically written in the rules that it is a foul to not shoot from behind the line? In those cases, if the opponent has not spoken up before the shot, imho he is consenting to the shot being taken as is.

He might not have noticed until you said something. I would always remind someone if I noticed but wouldn't blame someone if they let you foul. Might think a little less of them sportsmanship wise but he's not breaking a rule

Your right!

Bob Jewett said:

In general, as a player, I don't think you should warn your opponent when he is about to make a stupid play unless he is totally helpless, has no chance to win and needs to learn the rules in spite of an unwillingness to actually read them.

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Gambling, BCA league play or tournament play I'm not saying anything, but practicing or as you stated playing someone that has no chance to win.., I'll take my foot off the gas.

I still remember the first time I made that foul. In a house tournament match against a much better player, he saw I was going to foul and did not say anything until after I took that foul shot. You could say he had poor sportsmanship and I might agree seeing that I was not nearly as good as he was, but I'll tell you one thing: I have paid attention to possible fouls ever since and that particular foul never occurred again. So in a sense, I am still grateful to him.

I think all players should be aware of the rules and I am not responsible for them not fouling. If you play in a tournament or league you're supposed to know what the rules are.
Having said that, there have been occasions where I did say something before the opponent fouled e.g. if he's a buddy of mine, if his foul is probably not match-determining and certainly in friendly practice play. But I have kept quiet too, if it was a last rack in a match, if it would improve my winning chance or even if I just did not like the guy much.

Masayoshi said:

Is it specifically written in the rules that it is a foul to not shoot from behind the line? In those cases, if the opponent has not spoken up before the shot, imho he is consenting to the shot being taken as is.

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I disagree. The player not at the table is not responsible for the other player not making any fouls.

I tell my opponent when they place the cue ball in an illegal place. I also tell them when they're shooting the wrong ball. I don't care what they would do. It's who I choose to be.

its not my job to stop you from fouling

ida let you do it

I agree with those who would tell a friendly opponent.

Gambling for anything meaningful or tournament match...opponent should not expect for me to act in his favor in any situations that arise of his own actions.

hotelyorba said:

I still remember the first time I made that foul. In a house tournament match against a much better player, he saw I was going to foul and did not say anything until after I took that foul shot. You could say he had poor sportsmanship and I might agree seeing that I was not nearly as good as he was, but I'll tell you one thing: I have paid attention to possible fouls ever since and that particular foul never occurred again. So in a sense, I am still grateful to him.

I think all players should be aware of the rules and I am not responsible for them not fouling. If you play in a tournament or league you're supposed to know what the rules are.
Having said that, there have been occasions where I did say something before the opponent fouled e.g. if he's a buddy of mine, if his foul is probably not match-determining and certainly in friendly practice play. But I have kept quiet too, if it was a last rack in a match, if it would improve my winning chance or even if I just did not like the guy much.


I disagree. The player not at the table is not responsible for the other player not making any fouls.

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I actually would agree with you if it is indeed a foul to play a bih behind the headstring in front of the headstring, but I don’t think there is actually a rule that specifies that as a foul. I could be wrong about that, though.

iusedtoberich said:

No big deal IMO, just more information for us to learn from.

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It's a HUGE deal to many forum members here.

I am not one of those people. :thumbup:

Maniac (always plays for the enjoyment value)

Bob Jewett said:

In general, as a player, I don't think you should warn your opponent when he is about to make a stupid play unless he is totally helpless, has no chance to win and needs to learn the rules in spite of an unwillingness to actually read them.

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So many rule sets...so little time.

Pool needs ONE set of standardized rules. Never gonna happen.

Maniac

situational ethics

Sometimes I don't tell someone trying to learn, not to be mean, but because they remember better with the mild punishment of the foul. Not playing for high stakes, lower or tournament, I might or might not say something. Usually will but occasionally I am not in the mood for whatever reason. Known jerks or those that try to seek every advantage themselves are less likely to get reminded than people that are more considerate themselves. If I have seen someone outright cheating, they are very unlikely to receive any little courtesies.

I think in general a player reaps what they sow. Those that try to make things hard on others usually get the same treatment. Those that play a more friendly game usually get one in return. Of course there is some question if you are more concerned with a friendly game or winning in a larger tournament or money match with a stranger or near stranger.

Hu

Masayoshi said:

Is it specifically written in the rules that it is a foul to not shoot from behind the line? In those cases, if the opponent has not spoken up before the shot, imho he is consenting to the shot being taken as is.

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That's the problem with rule sets, or specifications for anything, for that matter; they often contain ambiguity or vagueness. Let's choose the BCA Eight Ball rules, for example. They state:

7. SCRATCH ON A LEGAL BREAK.
If a player scratches on a legal break shot, (1) all balls pocketed remain pocketed (exception, the 8-ball: see rule 9), (2) it is a foul, (3) the table is open. PLEASE NOTE: Incoming player has cue ball in hand behind the head string and may not shoot an object ball that is behind the head string, unless he first shoots the cue ball past the headstring and causes the cue ball to come back behind the headstring and hit the object ball.

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It says cue ball in hand behind the headstring, but it doesn't state the consequences of violating this rule. I assume that it is a foul, and I am certain that it is the intent of the rule editors that it is a foul. One might reason, correctly so, in my opinion, that any shot in violation of the rules is a foul shot. But it doesn't explicitly state so.

As an opposing player watching this unfold, you can make the decision to allow them to potentially pocket the ball they target and then have ball in hand; or inform them that they are about to commit a foul, forcing them behind the headstring.

I completely disagree that not informing an opponent of an imminent foul is consent to the shot, that is, waiving the rule. There is no such protocol in pool.

In casual play, especially with folks who aren't "in to" pool, and just having fun, sure, I'd tell them. In competition I might let them foul, or not, according to what I evaluate is to my competitive advantage.

Would a referee let them foul in the that instance? That's a good question, and could be controversial if they informed a player before they committed a foul. This would apply not just to this case, but to aiming at the wrong ball (wrong group or eight out of turn). What if your opponent was taking aim at the eight ball, not realizing they still had one of their group on the table. Would you stop them? If you didn't are you giving them consent, and the game? Should the ref stop them in this case?

iusedtoberich said:

I've done both, but in 9 ball (never play 8 ball).... informing my opponent he was shooting at the wrong ball at times, and at other times, keeping that to myself and letting them foul. I've also had both happen to me when I was the shooter.

No big deal IMO, just more information for us to learn from.

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Funny similar story that just happened last week. I have brought in a brand new player to APA, she is a legit level 3.

She is playing a guy who with only the 4 ball left in 8 ball. He sets up to play the wrong ball. We tell him. The four is a difficult shot, he calls a time out. He misses it so ball in hand to my team mate. I knew he was going to foul because it was a kick bank and he was lined up wrong so I tell my team mate before he shoots - she will have ball in hand and to take the 10 to the corner , then the 14 into the side and you will be on the 8 easy.

I go back to my game and shoot.

I come back and find out she had setup the ball in hand on the 4 ball hand put it in. She became so focused on the 4 ball, she just wanted to put it in.

:grin: