Ferrule vs. ferrule less, vault plates etc.

boogieman · Sep 29, 2020

I’d really appreciate some cue maker opinions. I’m thinking about getting a torrified shaft, I want this thing to last at least 20 years. What are your options on ferrule vs ferrule less with tip vault? I’m concerned about longevity and future maintenance.

I’d like the cue to be almost hard wired into my senses. I have one concern about chalk wear on ferrule less. I don’t drill my chalk, but my buddies do, so I often have half drilled out chalk to apply. So as a cue maker do you see ferrule less to be bad in a shaft expecting to be used for decades?

JoeyInCali · Sep 30, 2020

Shafts with good ferrules hit better.
There I said it .
When you draw the ball, you are using the walls of the ferrule b/c you are using the edge of the tip.
You get a better feel for the hit.
Same in follow shafts.
No ferrule and just pad feels dead to me .

S.Vaskovskyi · Sep 30, 2020

I would say it all depends on quite a lot of variables.
As usual the starting point to consider what is the main goal to achieve using a certain construction, materials and so on...what are your preferences.
When I started to build my player a few years ago when it comes to the shaft I knew I want to get a lower deflection than I was used to playing with my previous solid maple shafts with 1 inch ferrules that came with my custom Prather cue.
So as there is no big secret about what helps to get a lower deflection I made my decision relying on certain things. When it comes to the construction the main factor of course was the equipment, knowledge and experience I had at the time. When it comes to experience...well so it was my start at this new journey ...it was my curiousity to experiment and learning by doing.
Long story short at the end I got my 31" shaft with what I could call an inside ferrule (I guess the same construction is used when building cf shafts).
If you just look at the shaft it does look as a ferrule less shaft but in fact it is not so because I've also drilled the tip end 7" deep and glued a cf tube 8mm - 6mm ID.
All I can tell it was my first LD shaft which hit very solid and had much lower deflection than my previous shafts. To be short I was completely satisfied with the results I got. The only change I made after playing two years with it I switched the phenolic inside ferrule to the same construction but moose horn one because once I discovered how it feels also due to my curiosity. I loved that feel when it comes to the hit.
Having more free time during this damn quarantine I decided to build one more player for myself and I've made some changes when it comes to construction, materials and taper while building the shaft.
So as I went with slightly thinner tip diameter (12,2 mm vs 12,5 mm previous) and slightly bigger diameter drilled and cf tube glued inside (9mm vs 8mm) it was pretty logical to use at least very short outside ferrule. So I used tomahawk I had good experience with for making very short and thin walls outside ferrule and then the same inside moose horn ferrule on top. The result...the same great feel I love when it comes to the hit while the deflection is also pretty low...it does not have more that's for sure and I definitely happy with this shaft too.
When it comes to solid maple shafts without ferrule but just a pad on top...well I don't know how it feels when comes to the hit because I've never hit with one. When it comes to durability...I guess there is no argue what is more durable but tell that to quite a lot of top piramid players who prefer their hornbeam shafts with just a pad under the tip...and that is in the game with biggest and heaviest balls and much more power used for the stroke. You have to see what happened with so many ferrules on piramid cues and their hard tips they prefer...so as to the wood under just the pad.
So it is up to a player, his preferences and what he's ready to expect after some hard play. It is difficult to cheat the law of physics if possible at all.

boogieman · Sep 30, 2020

JoeyInCali said:
Shafts with good ferrules hit better.
There I said it .
When you draw the ball, you are using the walls of the ferrule b/c you are using the edge of the tip.
You get a better feel for the hit.
Same in follow shafts.
No ferrule and just pad feels dead to me .

S.Vaskovskyi said:
I would say it all depends on quite a lot of variables.
As usual the starting point to consider what is the main goal to achieve using a certain construction, materials and so on...what are your preferences.
When I started to build my player a few years ago when it comes to the shaft I knew I want to get a lower deflection than I was used to playing with my previous solid maple shafts with 1 inch ferrules that came with my custom Prather cue.
So as there is no big secret about what helps to get a lower deflection I made my decision relying on certain things. When it comes to the construction the main factor of course was the equipment, knowledge and experience I had at the time. When it comes to experience...well so it was my start at this new journey ...it was my curiousity to experiment and learning by doing.
Long story short at the end I got my 31" shaft with what I could call an inside ferrule (I guess the same construction is used when building cf shafts).
If you just look at the shaft it does look as a ferrule less shaft but in fact it is not so because I've also drilled the tip end 7" deep and glued a cf tube 8mm - 6mm ID.
All I can tell it was my first LD shaft which hit very solid and had much lower deflection than my previous shafts. To be short I was completely satisfied with the results I got. The only change I made after playing two years with it I switched the phenolic inside ferrule to the same construction but moose horn one because once I discovered how it feels also due to my curiosity. I loved that feel when it comes to the hit.
Having more free time during this damn quarantine I decided to build one more player for myself and I've made some changes when it comes to construction, materials and taper while building the shaft.
So as I went with slightly thinner tip diameter (12,2 mm vs 12,5 mm previous) and slightly bigger diameter drilled and cf tube glued inside (9mm vs 8mm) it was pretty logical to use at least very short outside ferrule. So I used tomahawk I had good experience with for making very short and thin walls outside ferrule and then the same inside moose horn ferrule on top. The result...the same great feel I love when it comes to the hit while the deflection is also pretty low...it does not have more that's for sure and I definitely happy with this shaft too.
When it comes to solid maple shafts without ferrule but just a pad on top...well I don't know how it feels when comes to the hit because I've never hit with one. When it comes to durability...I guess there is no argue what is more durable but tell that to quite a lot of top piramid players who prefer their hornbeam shafts with just a pad under the tip...and that is in the game with biggest and heaviest balls and much more power used for the stroke. You have to see what happened with so many ferrules on piramid cues and their hard tips they prefer...so as to the wood under just the pad.
So it is up to a player, his preferences and what he's ready to expect after some hard play. It is difficult to cheat the law of physics if possible at all.

Thanks for the info!

JoeyInCali · Sep 30, 2020

S.Vaskovskyi said:
If you just look at the shaft it does look as a ferrule less shaft but in fact it is not so because I've also drilled the tip end 7" deep and glued a cf tube 8mm - 6mm ID.
All I can tell it was my first LD shaft which hit very solid and had much lower deflection than my previous shafts. .

Carbon fiber tube at that size does not reduce end mass that much.
I've done 9mm with 7.62mm ID.

S.Vaskovskyi · Sep 30, 2020

JoeyInCali said:
Carbon fiber tube at that size does not reduce end mass that much.
I've done 9mm with 7.62mm ID.

It may be so but as I could not make any measurements of end mass to see the changes if any ...so my experience is based on what is really important - the performance at the table. I'm happy to work as a coach at our pool school for so many years and being able to see the results with my own eyes and hear the opinion of some players who play at quite a good speed and some having great fundamentals being fairly consistent when it comes to their stroke and so on...
They play with LD shafts already for years...so I can compare it to quite a few popular such as 314-2, Hybrid Edge, Cynergy 15K, Ignite...
What is even more important I have my own opinion based on my experience when I had been playing with standard maple shafts for 18 years being able to compete on a national level and having some good memories after winning tournaments where I managed to beat some best players here who had their medals at the EPC among many others...
Long story short ...I know there is a difference in performance and it is obvious. Do I like it? Yes...for sure...
When it comes to cue building...I just enjoy the process when I have some free time after coaching and I don't claim this way when building shafts is the best...what so ever...the construction just serves what I wanted to achieve and that is not only low deflection ... as I said it all depends on so many variables...with tools I have it works best for me. I've seen and tried standard solid maple shafts with 3/4 and even 1 inch ferrules which also had lower deflection. I guess what we strive for either it comes to playing the game or cue-building...so we have consistent results at the end we're happy with.
P.S. I'm sure you and so many others more experienced cue-builders than me know this

JoeyInCali · Sep 30, 2020

S.Vaskovskyi said:
It may be so but as I could not make any measurements of end mass to see the changes if any ...so my experience is based on what is really important - the performance at the table. I'm happy to work as a coach at our pool school for so many years and being able to see the results with my own eyes and hear the opinion of some players who play at quite a good speed and some having great fundamentals being fairly consistent when it comes to their stroke and so on...
They play with LD shafts already for years...so I can compare it to quite a few popular such as 314-2, Hybrid Edge, Cynergy 15K, Ignite...
What is even more important I have my own opinion based on my experience when I had been playing with standard maple shafts for 18 years being able to compete on a national level and having some good memories after winning tournaments where I managed to beat some best players here who had their medals at the EPC among many others...
Long story short ...I know there is a difference in performance and it is obvious. Do I like it? Yes...for sure...
When it comes to cue building...I just enjoy the process when I have some free time after coaching and I don't claim this way when building shafts is the best...what so ever...the construction just serves what I wanted to achieve and that is not only low deflection ... as I said it all depends on so many variables...with tools I have it works best for me. I've seen and tried standard solid maple shafts with 3/4 and even 1 inch ferrules which also had lower deflection. I guess what we strive for either it comes to playing the game or cue-building...so we have consistent results at the end we're happy with.
P.S. I'm sure you and so many others more experienced cue-builders than me know this

It would be easy to test without even shooting.
Grab a 7" piece of maple and drill it to fit that cf tube.
Compare the weight before and after .
CF tubes are heavier than wood . So, that hole inside has to be significant to make up for the added weight .

if there is not significant weight reduction, there is no significant cue ball squirt reduction. Physics.
Human testing can have some placebo effect.

S.Vaskovskyi · Oct 1, 2020

JoeyInCali said:
It would be easy to test without even shooting.
Grab a 7" piece of maple and drill it to fit that cf tube.
Compare the weight before and after .
CF tubes are heavier than wood . So, that hole inside has to be significant to make up for the added weight .

if there is not significant weight reduction, there is no significant cue ball squirt reduction. Physics.
Human testing can have some placebo effect.

Good point when it comes to measuring the difference in end mass weight...would I be curious about those simple measuments you mentioned I may not have the interest to go further trying on the shaft and then at the table. I've built some shafts for customers who asked standard "old school" solid maple shafts and could compare with...all I can say the difference was there. Was it possible to adjust?...sure ...in my preference list when it comes to the specification of the cue... the deflection is not on the first place definitely. I will always choose comfortable in length cue with any deflection over standard length cue with the lowest deflection...because if your cue action is horrible...)
Well when it comes to human testing...so as it is us who play the game and not the robots...well we all differ in so many ways and there are so many variables...but those at a certain level of playing having quite repeatable stroke shooting straight... knowing & feeling those shots (aiming & speed so on)...how it works with different equipment...well these players are capable to see & feel the difference and what works better for them...in fact even slight changes are felt by them...it is also often them who adapt better). So yes, there is also a contradiction...because anyway you just have to keep playing with the same equipment and...but still everyone has his preferences either...or...at the end all that matters the results... if talking players - at the competition.
I'm happy to work with some of such talents and my goal is besides coaching to be also capable to help with the equipment which works best for them.
It is fun and sad at the same time to observe how all that marketing stuff nowadays influence those young and not only...fragile minds. So I try also to help and explain here and there too when some ask about getting a sponsorship from those brands they believe are... My simple answer is always simple "nothing costs more than something..." So better invest in your improvement and show the results that are noticable...then you could have possibility to choose...sorry for going off topic.

Ferrule vs. ferrule less, vault plates etc.

boogieman

It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that ping.

JoeyInCali

Maker of Joey Bautista Cues

S.Vaskovskyi

AzB Silver Member

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boogieman

It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that ping.

JoeyInCali

Maker of Joey Bautista Cues

S.Vaskovskyi

AzB Silver Member

JoeyInCali

Maker of Joey Bautista Cues

S.Vaskovskyi

AzB Silver Member