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11-02-2019, 03:36 PM

"The only question I have is if the object ball is behind the head string and the cue ball is spotted on the head spot,
can the object ball be pocketed straight in and not banked off the foot rail in the two pockets behind the head string?

Also, where is the center spot? Dead center of the table?"



If the last OB is behind the head string and the CB is in the rack, the CB is placed on the head spot and you can shoot
any OB you choose, including the last OB and you can make it in any pocket you choose or you can call a safety.

And, the center spot is the exact middle of the table.
  
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crazysnake
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11-02-2019, 06:03 PM

Thanks for clearing that up.

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Bob Jewett
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11-02-2019, 07:28 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by JimGinPhx View Post
Last object ball on head spot, cue ball in rack. Cue ball in kitchen. Object ball can be shot at only if cue ball makes contact outside the kitchen.
No. The headstring and the headspot are not considered part of the kitchen. If a ball is exactly on the headstring -- which is a very unlikely occurrence unless the ball was spotted at the end of the previous rack -- it is a playable ball if the cue ball is in hand and the cue ball will probably not leave the kitchen before hitting it, which is fine.


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crazysnake
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11-02-2019, 07:33 PM

I think we need a video.

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11-02-2019, 10:31 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
No. The headstring and the headspot are not considered part of the kitchen. If a ball is exactly on the headstring -- which is a very unlikely occurrence unless the ball was spotted at the end of the previous rack -- it is a playable ball if the cue ball is in hand and the cue ball will probably not leave the kitchen before hitting it, which is fine.


I remember this case by thinking about the phase “behind the line.” When someone has ball in hand they must play it from “behind the line (or headstring),” indicating that the “line” or headstring is not part of the kitchen and therefore an OB on the headstring is a legal ball to shoot at.


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11-04-2019, 07:17 PM

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Originally Posted by DynoDan View Post
Never saw it done, and no mention of that procedure in the old BCA rulebook.
I guess the current generation of players who can no longer reliably avoid fouling an object ball while shooting, can’t be trusted (when acting as their opponent’s referee) to lift the triangle straight up either (?).
You seem cranky. We frequently use a ball marker for ease of racking. I can't see any valid reason not to. Makes it much easier to get a tight rack, and eliminates the possibility of accidentally altering the situation.
  
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11-05-2019, 02:26 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick View Post
You seem cranky. We frequently use a ball marker for ease of racking. I can't see any valid reason not to. Makes it much easier to get a tight rack, and eliminates the possibility of accidentally altering the situation.
Not so much ‘cranky’ as puzzled. If the last ball is close enough to make racking risky, then it just seems as though one source of contention is being traded for another (I suppose no one has ever argued over the replaced position of a ‘marked’ ball?). Just saying, while marking the CB for cleaning has been traditionally allowed and specified in the rules, disturbing the position of an OB hasn’t (?). Since you must trust the referee to rack the balls tightly, in the rare instance of clumsiness when he accidentally disturbed the break ball, you also typically trusted him to replace it correctly (to the best of his memory).
  
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Bob Jewett
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11-05-2019, 02:41 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by DynoDan View Post
Not so much ‘cranky’ as puzzled. If the last ball is close enough to make racking risky, then it just seems as though one source of contention is being traded for another (I suppose no one has ever argued over the replaced position of a ‘marked’ ball?). Just saying, while marking the CB for cleaning has been traditionally allowed and specified in the rules, disturbing the position of an OB hasn’t (?). Since you must trust the referee to rack the balls tightly, in the rare instance of clumsiness when he accidentally disturbed the break ball, you also typically trusted him to replace it correctly (to the best of his memory).
If the object ball is 1/2mm outside the rack area, it is more or less impossible to rack without disturbing the ball even for the steadiest racker. Instead of moving it and then putting it back to the best of the ref's guess, it makes a lot more sense to mark the position, remove the ball, rack the balls and then put the ball back precisely where it was.

There were lots of things missing or broken in the old BCA rule book.


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Charles Hartfield
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Arrow 11-05-2019, 03:47 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by zencues.com View Post
"The only question I have is if the object ball is behind the head string and the cue ball is spotted on the head spot,
can the object ball be pocketed straight in and not banked off the foot rail in the two pockets behind the head string?

Also, where is the center spot? Dead center of the table?"



If the last OB is behind the head string and the CB is in the rack, the CB is placed on the head spot and you can shoot
any OB you choose, including the last OB and you can make it in any pocket you choose or you can call a safety.

And, the center spot is the exact middle of the table.
Thank you. Charles
  
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11-05-2019, 05:50 PM

Your welcome.

And to follow up... if the last OB is behind the head string and the CB is in the rack,
but the last OB will interfere with spotting the CB on the head spot then the CB is
spotted on the center spot. The shooting player can then shoot any OB he chooses.








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DynoDan
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11-06-2019, 11:43 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
If the object ball is 1/2mm outside the rack area, it is more or less impossible to rack without disturbing the ball even for the steadiest racker.
There were lots of things missing or broken in the old BCA rule book.
Matter of opinion. I always thought the BCA’s direction that the ‘impossibility’ of the referee’s ‘racking-without-disturbing’ would automatically send the last ball to the headspot, as quite simple/expedient, and encouraged the selection of break balls not so close to the rack area (thus avoiding much nitpicking/contention). But then, I’m just a ‘cranky’ old guy, so what do I know?
  
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Bob Jewett
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11-06-2019, 11:52 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by DynoDan View Post
Matter of opinion. I always thought the BCA’s direction that the ‘impossibility’ of the referee’s ‘racking-without-disturbing’ would automatically send the last ball to the headspot, as quite simple/expedient, and encouraged the selection of break balls not so close to the rack area (thus avoiding much nitpicking/contention). But then, I’m just a ‘cranky’ old guy, so what do I know?
So, if the ball is slightly out of the rack, and you have a ref with the shakes, he's supposed to tell you it's in the rack?


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11-06-2019, 06:11 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
So, if the ball is slightly out of the rack, and you have a ref with the shakes, he's supposed to tell you it's in the rack?
While likely no longer relevant, this issue has nonetheless inspired a rereading (and interpretation) of the old rulebook (mental masturbation?) and some reflection/musing:
Apparently, the current rules dictate that when a close breakball’s location is designated/decided as outside of the drawn rack lines, it’s position is then marked, and replaced after the balls are racked. That decision is obviously final, since the ball has been marked/moved.
Back in the day (when drawing lines on the table was not always common or permitted), you COULD ask the referee for a definite decision (the rules stated that the referee MUST be ‘responsive’), but if in error, that decision was NOT final. If he then discovered that it was NOT ‘possible’ to rack without disturbing it, the ball then went to the headspot. If he was clumsy and moved it, he then replaced it to the best of his ability. Much as players are not allowed to lay their cue on the table as a guide, but must maintain a grip, the rulebook ‘implied’ (not specifically stated) that the triangle could only be hovered over the rack area to determine whether the last ball was ‘out’.
I believe the game was thus more interesting then since more judgment was required in breakball determination. You never really knew for sure if that ball was in the rack area until the actual racking was attempted!
P.S. While ‘rereading’, I discovered a rule I had never encountered before. Namely, that when spotting a ball behind the foot spot where the CB interferes, it CONNOT be frozen to it!
Learning something new everyday.
  
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11-06-2019, 07:30 PM

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Originally Posted by DynoDan View Post
...while marking the CB for cleaning has been traditionally allowed and specified in the rules, disturbing the position of an OB hasn’t (?).
My mistake. The old BCA rulebook stated that a player may request ANY BALL be marked/cleaned at any time.
  
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11-16-2019, 07:37 AM

Just want to thank everyone for the responses to my original question. So delighted to hear from Bob Jewett again. I think I was asking him questions about Mosconni's explanation about why English curves cue ball path 25 years ago in "newsgroups" in early days of the internet.

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