John Schmidt says CTE works after all.
- Thread starter Sloppy Pockets
- Start date
Just remember .......it takes two to tango.......don't forget to give credit to Spider guy and others.......
lol
Once again it's obvious you don't understand what you're reading (or saying), so I'll stop interrupting this thread to demonstrate that.
pj
chgo
I understand the situation. It's YOU that does not seem to & seems to want to change the parameters to fit the word game that you want to play.
A center line to the center of the pocket for a planned center hit on the cue ball is not that same initial line as one to the fuller cut side of the pocket for a planned inside hit on the cue ball.
The TOI method allows for an alignment to even miss the pocket & still allow the ball to be pocketed by the squirt of the ball from the inside hit.
Can you align an intended center hit shot to miss the pocket & still pocket the ball when hitting the intended center?
By doing that & making sure that the ball is hit on the inside, one has the whole pocket in one direct in which to pocket the ball.
For a center pocket line & center hot shot one only has 1/2 the pocket in one of the two directions.
I've never hit on the wrong side intending to hit the TOI nor I have ever hit the center when intending to hit with the TOI. I can NOT say that I have never missed the exact center of the CB when intending to hit the center & especially not when hitting with speed.
You're stuck in the books & do not understand the bio-mechanics & the connection to the human mind & how they can be influenced.
CJ understands a lot about these sorts of things. One can call them tricks, tips, or maybe matters based in psychology that can enhance ones level of play when playing for the money &/or playing a long set for the money.
Last edited:
Rick,
I agree with the instances you've laid out here. But in the second set (centerball hit) you would be aiming (aligning) for center pocket, not for just inside the pocket point. Thus the miss, if the same magnitude as in the first set, would send the OB to either side of center pocket, but still in the pocket. The margin of error is the same (all else being equal).
Squirt tends to be essentially a linear function of tip offset at small to moderate offsets, at least according to theory as we now know it.
Not sure why you're not seeing it this way?
Welcome back Patrick! (Sorry Rick :frown
Jim
Rick,
I agree with the instances you've laid out here. But in the second set (centerball hit) you would be aiming (aligning) for center pocket, not for just inside the pocket point. Thus the miss, if the same magnitude as in the first set, would send the OB to either side of center pocket, but still in the pocket. The margin of error is the same (all else being equal).
Squirt tends to be essentially a linear function of tip offset at small to moderate offsets, at least according to theory as we now know it.
Not sure why you're not seeing it this way?
Welcome back Patrick! (Sorry Rick :frown
Jim
Jim,
I do understand that & I said so somewhere in this rigamaroo.
Please see my post just before yours & see if there is anything there that might be food for thought for you.
It's a combination of matters & not just the one isolation.
With the TOI PLAN one can actually align for a miss & still pocket the ball & that yields the whole pocket in that one direct vs just 1/2 of the pocket for a center hit in one direction. One can not align for a miss with a planned center hit & still pocket the ball with the intended center hit.
I've never hit on the other side of center nor even center & that is because I am coming from an undercut position & must add cut with the inside hit. A lil bit gets the ball into the thick hit side of the pocket, more gets it in the middle & even more gets it into the the thin hit side of the pocket.
Don't look at it as one shot but a playing method of repetitions that breeds & basically insures that one will not miss the intended target on the 'wrong' side.
I think semantics may be an issue regarding the words align, plan, etc.
How often have you or PJ shot a shot actually planning for & using the squirt & I do not mean with the pivot point of the shaft when using BHE.
TOI does not use a pivot to the inside. It uses a parallel shift.
Even though I've shot almost my whole playing time with 'parallel' english that was a bit of an issue for me at first until CJ told me privately to be very very careful when making the shift because the cue is larger at the butt than it is at the tip. If the cue were rolled the butt would move farther than the tip & it would not be a parallel shift. CJ's tip was to not try to move the cue in one motion parallel but to instead to move the tip first & then follow the lil bit with the butt to get it parallel.
I was almost offended when he made the suggestion but I tried it & he was correct.
I certainly understand that the margin of error of my actual stroke is not changed by whether or not I am aiming at center or 3 mm to the inside of center. That is NOT what CJ said or was talking about.
It's about having the whole pocket available when coming from one direction vs going at it's center with a center hit & only having 1/2 the pock for the margin for error in one or the other direction.
I hope you can see the difference.
Regards.
PS Perhaps we should take this into PM if you want to continue to discuss it. PJ has started this off topic detour & I think he is finished with it.
Last edited:
I wonder who will be next in the banning queue? Anyway, to discuss TOI is rather off-topic in this thread, but the can of worms is allready open, so we might as well dig in, lol.
I never fully bought the "bigger margin of error" thing that CJ was preaching. He did say that TOI is a method of playing more than an aiming system per se. It has some nice features as an aiming tool, such as teaching people to divide the pocket into smaller parts (on every shot) and making people aware of smaller incriments of english, again on all shots.
Patrick Johnson and others like him seem to think that hitting center ball is always easier, and it may be on paper, but for a player there are many instances where spinning the ball in is preferable. For a lot of cuts, using outside to spin the ball in is a lot easier, not just tonullify throw, but throw the ball towards the pocket! You will never get any of the paper pool players to admit to that, but ask any real player and they will tell you. That is not to say that you should always do this, far from it, you should always take positional concerns into your considerations, but most players will have a bias either to the inside or outside of the ball, on certain shots. I had the pleasure of playing a young, real natural shooter just the other day. It struck me that he shot a lot of shots with outside like I used to do when I was learning. I was struck by the easy way he pocketed very difficult shots, and I think I may have lost a little something by forcing myself to shoot shots in an unnatural way.
CJ clearly has an inside bias, but in fact it has many of the same advantages as the outside of the ball has. It allows you to aim fuller to the ball for instance. TOI has the added benefit of (slightly) holding up the ball on some shots which may let you hit the shot a bit harder. Combined with aiming fuller, having a "full stroke" on most of your shots can be very good for your pocketing percentage and staying in stroke IMO.
If you have ever watched a lower level player cue up to a thin cut, you will know that they often do not hit that kind of shot with the same stroke as they would a fuller hit. Their strokes get choppy and tentative, and often they end up missing the shot alltogether and terribly. If you tell such a player to shoot the same shot half ball with a little bit of inside, there is a good chance they will cue the shot better, they may still miss it, but at least they won't butcher it. The same thing will creep into the games of better players as well. Don't tell me you guys have never been tentative about aiming an 8 foot thin cut, with the cue pointing at nothing but air! With inside and outside english your stroke does the difficult aim work. You are aiming at a concrete target with a predetermined tip offset. You don't have to squint at some point half a ball into the air!
I never fully bought the "bigger margin of error" thing that CJ was preaching. He did say that TOI is a method of playing more than an aiming system per se. It has some nice features as an aiming tool, such as teaching people to divide the pocket into smaller parts (on every shot) and making people aware of smaller incriments of english, again on all shots.
Patrick Johnson and others like him seem to think that hitting center ball is always easier, and it may be on paper, but for a player there are many instances where spinning the ball in is preferable. For a lot of cuts, using outside to spin the ball in is a lot easier, not just tonullify throw, but throw the ball towards the pocket! You will never get any of the paper pool players to admit to that, but ask any real player and they will tell you. That is not to say that you should always do this, far from it, you should always take positional concerns into your considerations, but most players will have a bias either to the inside or outside of the ball, on certain shots. I had the pleasure of playing a young, real natural shooter just the other day. It struck me that he shot a lot of shots with outside like I used to do when I was learning. I was struck by the easy way he pocketed very difficult shots, and I think I may have lost a little something by forcing myself to shoot shots in an unnatural way.
CJ clearly has an inside bias, but in fact it has many of the same advantages as the outside of the ball has. It allows you to aim fuller to the ball for instance. TOI has the added benefit of (slightly) holding up the ball on some shots which may let you hit the shot a bit harder. Combined with aiming fuller, having a "full stroke" on most of your shots can be very good for your pocketing percentage and staying in stroke IMO.
If you have ever watched a lower level player cue up to a thin cut, you will know that they often do not hit that kind of shot with the same stroke as they would a fuller hit. Their strokes get choppy and tentative, and often they end up missing the shot alltogether and terribly. If you tell such a player to shoot the same shot half ball with a little bit of inside, there is a good chance they will cue the shot better, they may still miss it, but at least they won't butcher it. The same thing will creep into the games of better players as well. Don't tell me you guys have never been tentative about aiming an 8 foot thin cut, with the cue pointing at nothing but air! With inside and outside english your stroke does the difficult aim work. You are aiming at a concrete target with a predetermined tip offset. You don't have to squint at some point half a ball into the air!
Last edited:
A miss-hit on your CB sends the OB to the left or right of your center pocket target, no matter what "plan" you have.
All you're doing is aiming for center pocket with side, with your aim adjusted to compensate for squirt, just like everybody else does for a shot with side. It's the same shot no matter what story you tell yourself - even CJ's "margin of error" baloney.
pj <- how many times is that?
chgo
Good Insightful Post, Sir.
I think you should read the part in StraightPool99's post about paper players.
You like making TRUE statements in snips here & snips there that are out of context & are very misleading.
"I" am not as particular as CJ & don't really care if my ball hits center pocket so "I" don't have the center pocket target that YOU say that "I" have.
On certain shots I only care that the ball pockets & I do not really care if it goes near, center, or far.
But I am playing it in one direction just as I did when throwing them in with outside or inside spin.
An inside hit on the ball for the purpose of spin & an inside hit on the ball for the purpose of squirt are NOT the same thing but YOU do not seem to understand that either.
I know that playing ability has nothing to do with intelligence but it does have to do with feel & understanding the effects of how a ball is hit relative to the speed & even how the cue tip travels on the ball during contact for different amounts of offset & speeds of hit.
I would suggest that perhaps you should read StraightPool99's post with an open mind.
I've been told that there was once a video of you playing, but that you requested that it be taken down. Why did you do that?
Last edited:
Funny how people view using spin to pocket balls and I use spin to put the CB where I want.
I don't need to use outside to pocket a ball, I would use outside to put the CB where I wanted after pocketing the ball.
8 ft thin cut shots don't scare me one bit cause I am looking where to put the CB and not where I'm hitting the CB with my cue.
Good for you. Wish I found pool that easy, I'd go to the US open and collect the easy cash (or not, depending on Barry's mood).
While some of what you say is true(for you), shape also requires attention to where the ob must be hit do to distance ,speed and spin. The same shot can require different aim points depending on desired shape. No way around this. Are you sure your not looking at where your hitting the cb??
I don't know what it is but playing with the newer Aramith ball sets on the Diamond tables, it seems almost hit or miss if a ball is going to throw enough or not.
It seems like they are not throwing & I'll make an adjustment & then they throw like Nolan Ryan. I adjust back some & they don't throw.
I'd rather play with the older Centennial Balls.
I could understand old vs new but not the inconsistency of the Arimith balls.
They make me change my style of play to less english.
It makes no sense to me & I can not figure it out. I thought it might be how they clean the balls but they just use water a bit of soap.
Any ideas?
I've been playing with englsh & throwing balls in for nearly 50 years. I know when I put spin on the ball & it does not transfer & I did NOT say that I was making adjustments after every shot. Some seem to read what ever they want to read & then say what ever they want for their own motives. I also know that the Centennial Balls are throwing more 'normally'.
Even the best companies make mistakes & have bad batches at times. The red circle cue ball is NOT made of the exact same compound mixture as most other balls. So a mistake in manufacturing could result in a difference.
Also I did not talk to everyone that is cleaning the balls.
Making the adjustment 'immediately' was when CJ was referring to the speed of the shot to keep any swerve out of the picture when using TOI. When a ball would undercut, he would increase his acceleration & speed to keep any swerve out & if it over cut he would pull back a hair or reduce the inside a hair.
It's similar when throwing balls. To much speed = less or no throw. Too little speed = more throw than intended.
And... there is no such thing as a completely objective aiming system that any normal human being would be able to implement.
Even the best companies make mistakes & have bad batches at times. The red circle cue ball is NOT made of the exact same compound mixture as most other balls. So a mistake in manufacturing could result in a difference.
Also I did not talk to everyone that is cleaning the balls.
Making the adjustment 'immediately' was when CJ was referring to the speed of the shot to keep any swerve out of the picture when using TOI. When a ball would undercut, he would increase his acceleration & speed to keep any swerve out & if it over cut he would pull back a hair or reduce the inside a hair.
It's similar when throwing balls. To much speed = less or no throw. Too little speed = more throw than intended.
And... there is no such thing as a completely objective aiming system that any normal human being would be able to implement.
Last edited:
Don't forget though, CJ insists that TOI is not spinning the Cueball.
The other things you mentioned, hitting fuller, with pace and being able to let your stroke out, are definite advantages.
The other things you mentioned, hitting fuller, with pace and being able to let your stroke out, are definite advantages.