Rules question?

SamShaddey

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
APA You and the other player have one ball left and the eight ball. Your balls are locked up on the long six inches from corner pocket. You make a good hit leaving your ball in between the other guys. He picks up the cues ball and hands it to you. You then make a good hit and he picks up again and hands it to you. Player two refuses to call stale saying if player one fouls or or calls stale mate, then he will be able to take ball in hand and play safe! Is this right? Just seems off to me.
 

MattPoland

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I believe stalemate is only when both players won’t take BIH. If one thinks they can indefinitely make a good hit and won’t offer BIH, you keep playing until someone messes up. Especially if the other keeps offering BIH until they get BIH.


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KMRUNOUT

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I believe stalemate is only when both players won’t take BIH. If one thinks they can indefinitely make a good hit and won’t offer BIH, you keep playing until someone messes up. Especially if the other keeps offering BIH until they get BIH.


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Exactly correct. It is a stalemate when each player cannot or will not make use of ball in hand. As long as player one keeps playing a shot (even if it's a foul), player 2 can pick up the cue ball and hand it to player one every inning until the end of time. It is a stalemate only when neither player makes use of ball in hand in an inning.

KMRUNOUT


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JazzyJeff87

AzB Plutonium Member
Silver Member
14.1 and one pocket both do although some 1p tournaments I’ve seen don’t use it.but I don’t know about banks.
 

MattPoland

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
14.1 and one pocket both do although some 1p tournaments I’ve seen don’t use it.but I don’t know about banks.


Thanks for the clarification. It appears from looking at WPA and onepocket.org:
1P: Loss of game
14.1: Serious Foul (15 point penalty)
Banks: No 3-foul rule


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Celophanewrap

Call me Grace
Silver Member
It can only be a stale mate if both player agree to call it so meaning that neither can
make use of, or refuses to make use of a BIH. Normal APA rules apply at all times,
there is no limit as to how many times you can play a safe or how many times you
can pick up the cue ball and hand it over, but both would still have to agree it is a
stale mate.
One player cannot call "stale mate" it must be agreed upon by both and a BIH would
only result in the event of a BIH foul, such as a bad hit, or no rail, etc... or conceding a shot -
if one player should decide to pick up the cue ball and hand it over, incidentally, picking
up the cue ball and handing it over should be recorded as a defensive shot.
I would think that with a BIH or two you should be able to get out of that situation.
No 3 foul rule in the APA in 8 or 9 ball. So you may choose to play a defensive shot
at anytime. One of the purposes of a defensive shot is to help you gain an advantage.
Something I try to instill in less experienced players is that you don't always have to
make a ball for it to be a good shot
 
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kevoka

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Something I try to instill in less experienced players is that you don't always have to
make a ball for it to be a good shot

100% agree.

Furthermore, what you will find is the vast majority of APA players do not have the patience or skill to play out a defensive game. My goal in doing defensive setups is to show "enough leg" on a shot to my opponent to get them to think they can succeed by breaking it up.
 

hang-the-9

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I think the rule for a stalemate is if no progress is made to end the game. If the other player keeps not trying anything, if I was a ref I'd call a stalemate after 3 or 4 shots like that and re-play the game.
 

Celophanewrap

Call me Grace
Silver Member
From the Team Manual:
 

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KMRUNOUT

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I think the rule for a stalemate is if no progress is made to end the game. If the other player keeps not trying anything, if I was a ref I'd call a stalemate after 3 or 4 shots like that and re-play the game.

The poster was asking about APA rules. You are describing BCA rules.

KMRUNOUT
 

MattPoland

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
At the same time a table ref isn’t always going to judge in alignment with the rule book.


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MattPoland

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
In The APA? Why not?


Anywhere. Not just at the APA. More notably though at regional events where you won’t have John Lehman, Michaela Tabb or Nigel Rees at the table. Instead you’ll have some knowledgeable and respected person that probably doesn’t have every last rule memorized in detail and will occasionally make a call based on common sense or just what serves the interest of keeping the event moving.


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Celophanewrap

Call me Grace
Silver Member
Anywhere. Not just at the APA. More notably though at regional events where you won’t have John Lehman, Michaela Tabb or Nigel Rees at the table. Instead you’ll have some knowledgeable and respected person that probably doesn’t have every last rule memorized in detail and will occasionally make a call based on common sense or just what serves the interest of keeping the event moving.

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Matt, have you ever played in an APA regional or higher event?
To be sure, from time to time, like in any other event judgement mistakes will be made,
good hit/bad hit, rail/no rail, in front of the line/ behind the line, and so on, but this rule
the OP is calling into question is in black and white, and granted it could cause some
confusion to someone not familiar with the rule, but when that confusion occurs in an
APA event, the referee is to call an APA floor supervisor someone who is paid to be
familiar with the rules in the book and with access to the APA situational rule
application book. You don't need Michaela Tabb, or John Lehman for this rule.
 

kevoka

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
From the Team Manual:

A logical reading of this rule would lead to a stalemate after the first player whogave the first ball in hand pass, is subsequently given a ball in hand back (his opponent did not attempt a shot) and he himself does not attempt a shot, but again tries to give a BIH back


At this point each player has declined to shoot with a ball in hand.
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Only a really, Really, REALLY bad ref.

Well, then, in my experience there are a lot of really, really bad refs. Many refs have not actually read the rule book. That puts them on a level playing field with the players.:grin-square:
 

Celophanewrap

Call me Grace
Silver Member
A logical reading of this rule would lead to a stalemate after the first player whogave the first ball in hand pass, is subsequently given a ball in hand back (his opponent did not attempt a shot) and he himself does not attempt a shot, but again tries to give a BIH back


At this point each player has declined to shoot with a ball in hand.

I would agree, but usually a couple of times back and forth is usually the standard just
to make sure. Personally I can say that there are times after a couple of looks that I
might see something I didn't see the first or second time we handed the balls over,
and as a referee you would check with both players just to ask if they are sure. It
might take an extra minute or two, but no big deal
 
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