wrist snap on draw stroke- ?
- Thread starter evergruven
- Start date
No matter how hard you try you cannot significantly increase the length of time that the tip is in contact with the CB. Therefore all the information here is incorrect. While Danny was and is still a phenomenal player, his knowledge of pool physics is seriously lacking.
Scott Lee
2019 PBIA Instructor of the Year
Director, SPF National Pool School Tour
Scott Lee
2019 PBIA Instructor of the Year
Director, SPF National Pool School Tour
whoops, glad I asked
I'm draggin' ass next to you pat and bob
but if you throw me enough rope, I'll sure try to grab some :thumbup:
thanks for the explain.
not sure how exactly it relates
but I would have loved to see bruce lee follow a pool path
"be water" on the table..not all stiff or herky-jerky
just see the shot..get down with the cue so smooth
that there is no cue..and just blow the ball into the pocket
Chalking increases this time! Which is why for draw shots, some players use too much chalk. An even but not heavy coat of chalk helps.
Not miscuing "increases contact time". More chalk after that is meaningless.
pj
chgo
Nevertheless, the length of time increase is not the issue. The effect on the ball is. The combination of skid, differing speed effects over varying distance based on angle, applied force and timing offers a variety of outcomes not present with a level stroke. To claim information about these effects is incorrect, fails to understand what is truly significant. Without the prolonged contact, the swerve effect, that pj noted, never occurs. When pros like Ronnie, Bustie, Segal and Stephen L. and some of us lesser lights, can feel the difference, your definition of correctness, fails the real life experience test.
I don't recall the Kid saying anything about tip contact time with the cb. That's not what he was showing with the quick flick of the wrist. He was demonstrating a way to develop more tip speed going into the cb, which generates more spin. He is correct about that. With practice the technique can become very reliable.
You seem to be claiming that on swerve shots, the tip is in contact with the cue ball for longer than on shots without swerve.
Is that what you are claiming?
At what speed is it required? That is, for slow speeds it is clearly not required to accomplish soft draws and such. I think that even at medium speeds -- drawing the cue ball the length of the table with the object ball close by -- wrist snap is not required and is just a complication.
When does snap become useful?
Cole had that famous wrist twist back.
Swerve occurs whenever you hit the CB offcenter with a non-level cue. It has nothing to do with length of contact.
pj
chgo
I think using (not snapping) the wrist gives me more fine-tuned speed control at slow-to-normal speed. Am I crazy?
pj
chgo
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If your fast stroke is really not that fast, then a well timed snap can be very useful anytime you need more speed to generate more spin. People do it, despite it being a "complication". The thing is, it's an advanced technique that requires excellent timing and consistency, not something you teach to new players.
Exactly. There are some shots that feel better with a little wrist action. And honestly that feel is more important than what's really happening. Even if the wrist action isn't needed, if it feels like it works better then by all means that's what you should do. We are not robots -- we have a certain amount of finesse that we learn to incorporate into our stroke for certain shots.
Yes. Take the extreme. A cue delivered perpendicular to the table bed, dead center, on the cue ball, can maintain contact a long time. As the cue moves off the perpendicular the length of contact on a ball is less as the ball starts to skid first when driven towards the cloth. That resistance, logically is greater, on strokes aimed at the bed, and must be overcome before it moves. It takes time to overcome friction.
I think the argument doesn't need friction from the cloth to hold. If you elevate there will be somewhat longer contact, but that is unimportant to the action of the shot until you get up around 15-20 degrees of elevation. Then there will be slightly longer contact, and some of the forward speed that the cue ball would have had with a more horizontal is lost to the table.
But I don't think the discussion is about as much as 15-20 degrees of elevation, or is it?
Does wrist snap help with a slip stroke?
I agree to a point. Where the thinking diverges is that there are effects at lesser elevations. Dr. Dave offers a gearing english picture using 40% of the offset creating a turn rate that simply walks along the ob surface. Less than that spin rate and the ob experiences cut induced throw. More than that rate and spin induced throw spews the ob more sideways. Gearing english is fairly consistent regardless of vertical spin. So it works for draw, follow and stun shots. It fails on drag shots though, the spin rate is higher and fails to walk along the ob surface on contact. The added force applied with the intention of having forward momentum evaporate, generates a higher than normal spin rate. The table resistance is used to get a penetrating stroke than generates a higher spin rate, yet limits speed on contact.
The high spin rate is the zinger scenario. Adding draw to the shot will allow the shooter to enjoy the benefit of using a firmer stroke, just like in a drag shot. The difference is that a softer draw stroke is possible. The cb comes back sooner than when KD does his zinger. The angle into the rail is closer to the side pocket and the spin imparts more speed because of the steeper rail angle contact. Watch how Effren is able to use that softer stroke giving the spin time to work more on rail contact.
Try this. Using a medium draw stroke action feel the resistance on contact. Now address the ball a like amount above center and using the same penetrating stroke note how the cue ball runs away on contact and the bite feel is less. Now elevate the butt slightly and address the cue ball a touch higher above center with the cue plane passing the same height above the ball core. Driving the ball even that bit towards the bed you can feel the resistance and penetrating bite that Ronnie O looks for in his cue action. You also feel it when you need to apply follow on the cue ball when shooting over a ball at less than 15 °. Try it with about 5” between the Intervening ball and cue ball directly in the way. On sharper shot planes, with balls closer, the table resistance is enough to cause the cue ball to hop slightly at fairly low power. That’s getting more into the swerve realm of elevation.
The effect on the balls is the key factor.