Oh and....there's a 2nd question and it may be worthy of another thread but if there is deep knowledge out there, what's better having someone share this knowledge with you or discovering it on your own? I suppose the obvious answer is -- it's a combination of both, but I've enjoyed the personal discover side of this equation way more as I travel along.
Deep Knowledge
- Thread starter lfigueroa
- Start date
in pro matches I get to watch situations I've seen but haven't solved their way.
It makes sense after seeing them play the shot, but for regular people its like hoping for rain. Sometimes a dance works, other times yelling and my favorite is the head nod. Each are pre shot rituals that help me negotiate the shot.
However pros have a very different pre shot routine that doesnt involve tribal dances, its like they are aliens from another planet with their use of force on the table. Like those UFOS that can fly unidirectional, not thrust motion, but mag lev style control or a zero G engine.
It makes sense after seeing them play the shot, but for regular people its like hoping for rain. Sometimes a dance works, other times yelling and my favorite is the head nod. Each are pre shot rituals that help me negotiate the shot.
However pros have a very different pre shot routine that doesnt involve tribal dances, its like they are aliens from another planet with their use of force on the table. Like those UFOS that can fly unidirectional, not thrust motion, but mag lev style control or a zero G engine.
Wow!
I was impressed by Cole Dixon jumping the cue ball to allow the object ball to pass under it and make the straight back bank in a $1000 game of one pocket.
Could you diagram that shot...I don't understand it????
To quote you
You need to realize with your real eyes.
And, That Effren’s key was “know” spin, rather than no spin.
well done:thumbup:
Indeed. After a stunning and victorious14.1 runout by Luther Lassiter, I overheard a young member of the audience asking him: "Do you ever give lessons Mr. Lassiter?"
Lassiter replied: "Son, I can't give lessons, because I don't know what I'm doing."
Arnaldo
I like to think of deep knowledge as a small bucket of things a player has learned or been told over the years that most players do not know.
Some small things being great for a shot or two, others, maybe bigger more important things concerning stroke mechanics and position play. And not any two great players have exactly the same bucket of stuff, though there may be overlap. I also think that lesser players sometimes come to learn little things about their own game that sustain them through the tough times and matches.
As to imitation, in the last many years I have seen scores of players imitative of Shane's approach to the table, where he kinda does like an archer with the cue and air strokes it (I may not be describing this well). And so, I see all kinds of young guys doing the same thing -- shoot, even JB was doing it during our $10K match. And I wonder: do these guys have any clue *at all* why and exactly how SVB is doing what he's doing?
And of course they don't. I believe SVB is employing that PSR within very specific parameters to help him create a great stoke set up. The average guy that has no clue about that, and is just aping it, is doomed.
Lou Figueroa
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The object ball was near the head rail and the cue ball was positioned such that there was a kiss in the shot if he banked it to his pocket. The cue ball was hit so that it skipped just before impact causing it to pop straight up about a foot as the object ball passed under it and into his pocket.
I had a member here mention The Talent Code in a PM exchange once. Here was one of his responses during the exchange.
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I just got home. Had a very rare free Friday evening to myself so I went to the local weekly tourney on a mission to see observe analyze some stronger players.
I just wanted to jump ahead and send the strongest and sincerest thank you for getting back to me and sharing. I've read over your message once now and am going back over it. And I will again many times tomorrow. And many more times after that.
But now, tired and hungry (microwaving leftovers now) I'm blown away. In small hurricane proportions. After reading your message. "Pearls of wisdom" wouldn't do it justice. I guess I'm in that position of ignorance where I don't know what I don't know. But I will say that I consider myself very analytical, astute, and I read AZB incessantly to mine insights. And nothing I've seen comes close to the value of what you just now put forth for me. Your thinking is on a plane that is, IMO, too far above what I see here and wouldn't be appreciated in the manner it deserves.
As a point of reference, I recently acquired Mark Wilson's book. And I think he could learn from you.
So let me send you a preliminary thank you now. Before I begin to study and digest your PM. i wish I had better words to describe my awe. Like a hurricane I am so blown away. Apologies if that is in poor taste given your locale, but I can't think of the last time I jaw dropped upon discovering something as insightful. Or being the recipient of such.
Thank you thank you thank you.
I've snipped out your message for readability, but that doesn't mean I'm not listening. Quite the opposite. I've got a huge smile on my face. Because, regardless of what may come to be for my playing style/form in the next phase, I feel that I'm on the cusp of making profound advances in my knowledge and hopefully that will manifest in improved play.
I'll digress for a second and tell you that I recently finished "The Talent Code" by Daniel Coyle. And therein he devoted the 2nd segment to the concept of "ignition".... the external mechanisms that inspire and drive and inspire individuals to reach farther and deeper. You, sir, are that. What I poorly tried to convey last night in my earlier message was that your words on syncing theory and the examples you used were soooooo far beyond what I was able to gather for myself, in my personal mini mission to find some ignition.
........I smiled and drove slowly replaying everything, quite content. But when I got home and read your message it dawned on me that someone out there sees and knows this game more than the sum total of knowledge I could gather on my own and those I'd be able to approach.
I am guilty of bypassing the deeper levels of what you referred to. I had a hard time separating the wheat from the chaff and it was messing up my progress. I was improving and feeling better about seeing the shot. I did at one point find myself lining up and stroking as you described. And in my evolution lost awareness of that.
Over the summer and into the early fall I was at my peak, unconsciously aiming and trying to sharpen my positioning. And I also started devoting time to increasing accuracy and power on my break, and my banking (so poor), and kicking, and learning to jump. About 6 weeks ago I awoke one day to discover I lost my aiming. As if I had some kind of brain injury or had been in a coma for 20 years. A total crisis of confidence.
I vowed to make amends and practiced furiously and now sit controlling my fate.
The last 8 days have focused on a lot of rail shots and it's helped me immensely to see the CB OB relationship that vanished. I'm hoping to finish this session well then take time off to rethink my sighting modes and hopefully avoid another aiming relapse.
I'm staying on vertical axis and using speed more so than side compared to a month ago.
I will revisit what you put forth, soon, in due time. What you reiterated about having consistency and feeling the CB across the spectrum is a notion I've forgotten. Pride comes before the fall. I thought I had mastered some basics and was looking up to the skies, and I neglected the platform that I was standing on.
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Deep knowledge:
You can observe a lot by watching.
Half the game is 80% mental.
You can observe a lot by watching.
Half the game is 80% mental.
Pancake bump.
is this thread not about deep knowledge?
would it not be a treat to hear from those bodies and souls
who have professed in, and pontificated about, pool, so much?
we should be so lucky.
"dream on"
This topic has pulled a lot of pontificators off the bench. It comes with mixed insights.
The first is that attempts to pass on knowledge fail unless the student is ready. It’s easy to want more for a student than they want for themselves.
I have developed a pool mind. You’re not born with one. You grow one at the table. It involves a lot of thought experiments. You need to learn to take a ride on the cue ball.
In 2005, David Foster Wallace addressed the graduating class at Kenyon College. He began with a parable:
There are these two young fish swimming along, and they happen to meet an older fish swimming the other way, who nods at them and says, “Morning, boys. How’s the water?” And the two young fish swim on for a bit, and then eventually one of them looks over at the other and goes, “What the hell is water?”
And, nearing the end of his speech:
The capital-T Truth is about life BEFORE death. It is about the real value of a real education, which has almost nothing to do with knowledge, and everything to do with simple awareness; awareness of what is so real and essential, so hidden in plain sight all around us, all the time, that we have to keep reminding ourselves over and over: This is water.
A pool mind sees the stuff others miss, right under their nose. For example, many will know about the spot on the wall concept of kicking. Then in frustration, they find the local venues never have a usable equivalent wall. While the spot on the wall may give them a target, the real path of the ball only travels along that line until it hits a cushion. Walking around to the wall and looking back at the cue ball we find the line crosses the rail at the same place no matter which end you look from. The “water” is to simply become the spot on the wall. Stand where you wish there was a wall and look back to the known angle. Now pivot from the spot and look at the cue ball position. The line from you to the cue ball crosses the rail. Note where, go around to the cue ball, and aim through the crossing point.
The spot on the wall concept is usually introduced with a 3 to the corner stroke using running english. There is another companion concept called the magic spot. If you draw a line from the corner pocket to the long opposite rail second diamond past the side pocket with running follow, the 3 cushion shot, in theory should go 3 rails into the opposite corner pocket. If now you draw a line from the first diamond past the side pocket perpendicular to the mirror diamond beside the other side pocket, that line will cross the first line. Where they cross is the magic spot. What is magic about the spot is that a three cushion running follow shot over the magic spot ends up crossing the mirror image location of the original cue ball location. That concept can be combined with the spot on the wall to kick at many balls. But that is not the water. You can find that information online.
So what happens when the table doesn’t follow the formula. The magic spot shot ends up long or short of the mirror location. You now need to calibrate for the particular table. When I approach a new table I start by finding where I need to shoot at on the far side rail to go three to the corner starting at the corner. If the second diamond target with running follow ends up short of the pocket, you need to adjust, towards the corner. Figure out what line travels to the mirror at the corner. Now here is part of the water, the magic spot is on that line. Now pick another starting point like up along the long rail about two diamonds. Find out what line you need to shoot on there to end up at the mirror location. Wherever the two lines cross is the magic spot for that table. And remember that every rail could be different and that there are 4 magic spot locations on each table.
These are two examples of water. Becoming the spot on the wall and calibrating a table for 3 cushion kicking. Calibrate every table in your league and note them on your phone or in a notebook.
This applies to the mental side of the game as well. Much of pool is about perspective. I keep a journal of all things pool. In one entry after a snooker session I noted that it was like chasing a pea around on the freeway. On another I was amazed at how huge the balls and pockets looked that session. This was a water moment for me. My mind had generated both perspectives. The balls and pockets didn’t change size, only my perception of them. Size is relative to what things are being compared. A cue ball is huge next to lint or chalk or the weave in the cloth. It’s smaller when seen at a distance or compared to the table or the whole room. Watch a good player on a key shot. They stalk the shot line, picking up lint and flecks of chalk. They check the ball surfaces and get them cleaned, if needed. Taking the bigger ball picture back to be included in the entire shot, isn’t hard, it’s part of what is available, under your nose.
https://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?496802&p=6439161#post6439161
Is another thread where original knowledge is shared that is not found in books. Enjoy.
Just a pool mind sharing.
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lol
The philosophical makes interesting reading. I can't say I'd adopt the practice though.
Interesting read
A lot of interesting information, so I lock onto perhaps the trivial! I noticed again yesterday that my pool balls have shrunk! They once were quite large at two and a quarter inches, now it seems that they would be hard pressed to make an inch and three-quarter. Odd thing, the fitted box has shrunk too, they still fit it perfectly. Been noticing this shrinkage lately, might be the heat. Hasn't affected play, and the table is still the same height so it hasn't gotten shorter. I haven't measured it east to west, north to south though.
Peculiar and odd what our eyes and brains can do sometimes, no idea what affect it has on play if any.
Hu
A lot of interesting information, so I lock onto perhaps the trivial! I noticed again yesterday that my pool balls have shrunk! They once were quite large at two and a quarter inches, now it seems that they would be hard pressed to make an inch and three-quarter. Odd thing, the fitted box has shrunk too, they still fit it perfectly. Been noticing this shrinkage lately, might be the heat. Hasn't affected play, and the table is still the same height so it hasn't gotten shorter. I haven't measured it east to west, north to south though.
Peculiar and odd what our eyes and brains can do sometimes, no idea what affect it has on play if any.
Hu
Actually he just gave a free lesson if you were paying attention to what he was doing. I used to say that learning to play pool is 50% observation (watching good players) and 50% practice.
One little tidbit from Buddy Hall. He told me to shoot the cue ball through the object ball rather than just aiming at it. :smile:
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Ronnie O’Sullivan answers many questions with ‘Depends who I’m Playing.
I find this essential variable is missing in most billiard instruction. If I’m playing Reyes I’d better take added risk and clear the table. If I’m playing a type ‘a’ personality in league, I can get him off his game with a well played safety.
I sometimes hear that ‘you play the table.’ Not me. I play my opponent. After 51 years I likely win a third of my games just by watching the other guy’s game. For example, l’ll break and purposely leave a cluster because I know my opponent is thinking sinking a ball rather than safety play.
Oh wow and that’s one of my key steps. Only I am looking at and for my cue tip path through the cue ball.
The ‘Be Here Now’ of pool is the contact with the cue ball.
Seriously, consider this well I can’t divulge my sources.�� Just consider this as a gift from the “pool gawd”.
One last one speaking of (and to) the pool gawds not heads(stupid phone). On an incredibly hard attempt, it doesn’t hurt to “take a knee’. And I guess if you’re Catholic, uh cross you self.:shrug:
Thanks Greg. I added "cue ball" to that sentence above to make it more clear.