Paper micarta vs linen micarta

vsmavs23

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Hello all I'm experimenting with new ferrule materials, have been using aegus for a while but to stiff for my liking, my question is what is the difference between the linen and paper micarta. I noticed a major price difference is it because it's so hard to find the old Westinghouse paper micarta ferrules or are they that much better? Any input is greatly appreciated thanks all!!
 

deanoc

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
i am of the understanding that the old westinghouse ,semi yellow stuff was the best.
I couldn't begin to tell you why


how do you tell the difference in paper and linen based if you see them?
Where do you buy the stuff?

How do you know it plays better?

Can it be explained why?

I am intersested,i just bought a couple of the Westinghouse ones
 

Buster8001

Did you say shrubberies?
Silver Member
Okay, so...

Composition: There is a distinct difference between the two. They're both made by layering sheets sent in an epoxy, then pressed & heated until solid. The substrate sheets being either woven linen or bleached paper.

Visual: Linen micarta will have a distinct visual weave pattern, similar to linen phenolics of today. Paper micarta will have a "grain" similar to ivory, but no discernible weave.

Both are still made today. In my research, I've meet several custom micarta makers on Instagram that will make a custom batch for you. They mostly cater to knife makers. The problem is you have to order in a thickness suitable for ferrules. And the price is almost as expensive as finding the vintage material.

I've acquired several versions of vintage paper material, as well. GE made Textolite, another manufacturer made Marbalite, and so on. All are micarta; all are paper based. The "good stuff" most refer to, is actually Westinghouse Ivorite paper micarta. Westinghouse made other paper micarta - I have samples that are not Ivorite but still paper. Ivorite is what the majority of the vintage cue makers used. It appeared as ivory, was cheaper, not as brittle, and played well. However, as it aged, it turned the pale yellow you see on vintage shafts.

The reason for the price you pay, is once the vintage material is gone - it's gone. One has to search, and I mean dig, for a source thick enough for a ferrule. Some old cue makers still have some. Knife makers stock is usually too thin - even so, good luck getting them to let loose. It takes time, and then money to find it. All that is reflected in the price.

I'm a sucker for nostalgia, and sometimes get wrapped up in a subject. I've been researching this product for years. I've talked to Westinghouse employees, GE employees, Atlas Fiber employees (even the VP), cue makers, and knife makers in my search for information. And it's taken years to accumulate factual information, and would take way to long to type it out here. I hope this little bit helps.
 
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bbb

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Okay, so...

Composition: There is a distinct difference between the two. They're both made by layering sheets sent in an epoxy, then pressed & heated until solid. The sheets being either linen or paper.

Visual: Linen micarta will have a distinct visual weave pattern, similar to linen phenolics of today. Paper micarta will have a "grain" similar to ivory, but no discernible weave.

Both are still made today. In my research, I've meet several custom micarta makers on Instagram that will make a custom batch for you. They mostly cater to knife makers. The problem is you have to order in a thickness suitable for ferrules. And the price is almost as expensive as finding the vintage material.

I've acquired several versions of vintage paper material, as well. GE made Textolite, another manufacturer made Marbalite, and so on. All are micarta; all are paper based. The "good stuff" most refer to, is actually Westinghouse Ivorite paper micarta. Westinghouse made other paper micarta - I have samples that are not Ivorite but still paper. Ivorite is what the majority of the vintage cue makers used. It appeared as ivory, was cheaper, not as brittle, and played well. However, as it aged, it turned the pale yellow you see on vintage shafts.

The reason for the price you pay, is once the vintage material is gone - it's gone. One has to search, and I mean dig, for a source thick enough for a ferrule. Some old cue makers still have some. Knife makers stock is usually too thin - even so, good luck getting them to let loose. It takes time, and then money to find it. All that is reflected in the price.

I'm a sucker for nostalgia, and sometimes get wrapped up in a subject. I've been researching this product for years. I've talked to Westinghouse employees, GE employees, Atlas Fiber employees (even the VP), cue makers, and knife makers in my search for information. And it's taken years to accumulate factual information, and would take way to long to type it out here. I hope this little bit helps.
sent you a greenie for a very educational post...:thumbup:
 

Ssonerai

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Appreciating the education.

Paper micarta is simply the best and most sought after...for a reason. It's the best playing.

There are some paper micartas here, don't know from where, but i have actively avoided using for ferules because i perceived it as weak. I have made things like feet for tables, etc, and noticed that if you are not careful or make the fit too tight, it can be split. (more easily than linen).

If it is so good, i may try it for a ferule or 2 - question - should the grain go parallel to the shaft/"longways" or cross-ways?

Does this look like "good stuff", or how do you tell? I use it for furniture accents & 3D panto work where "natural materials" could be a problem today. Not as nice a color, though.

(FWIW, I like melamine ferrules)

Feet don't all match, and foot on maple leg is not fitted yet, these were client approval photos; just some shots of the material.
 

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Buster8001

Did you say shrubberies?
Silver Member
Appreciating the education.



There are some paper micartas here, don't know from where, but i have actively avoided using for ferules because i perceived it as weak. I have made things like feet for tables, etc, and noticed that if you are not careful or make the fit too tight, it can be split. (more easily than linen).

If it is so good, i may try it for a ferule or 2 - question - should the grain go parallel to the shaft/"longways" or cross-ways?

Does this look like "good stuff", or how do you tell? I use it for furniture accents & 3D panto work where "natural materials" could be a problem today. Not as nice a color, though.

(FWIW, I like melamine ferrules)

Feet don't all match, and foot on maple leg is not fitted yet, these were client approval photos; just some shots of the material.

Nice looking work!

Paper micarta - yes, but the grain looks too strong for Ivorite. Still would make a good ferrule.

20190208_105912.jpg
 

Ill Gotten Gain

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I was told by Laurie of South West cues that the grain pattern of the Westinghouse micarta plays a role in the strength of the ferrule. I don't remember which way but I do remember her saying that most of it out there is cut wrong because people try to get as many pieces from a block so the grain pattern is wrong most of the time
 

gutshot

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The best micarta is old Westinghouse yellow looking linen. It turns orange and plays better than old yellow and other micarta.
 

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S.Vaskovskyi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Paper micarta is simply the best and most sought after...for a reason. It's the best playing.

Unfortunately I had not possibility to ever have a shot with any micarta ferrule on a shaft. So I can base my opinion about this material from other side as a builder who had experience making some other stuff for my needs. The positive is I like the look of either linen or paper micarta. Ferrulles out of these old micartas look fairly cool. When it comes to other important properties and if summarize at the end all pros and cons I believe there are better modern materials out there with great quility for much less money especially bearing in mind the popularity of shafts with LD properties.
For example when it comes to my preferences as a player I now have my first LD ferrule less shaft and I like the feel and hit so much. So as usual for particular purpose and for each his own.
 

JoeyInCali

Maker of Joey Bautista Cues
Silver Member
Paper micarta is still made today.
But, not that yellow kind.
It's brown/tan now.
I use it for inserts.
Lightweight, durable and easy to machine.
OK for ferrules too if you don't mind the color.
 

Ssonerai

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Thanks, guys!
Like i said, had no idea paper micarta would be good. Will try at least one, if i ever get the other stuff done in the shop and can make time to finish a few shafts.
Buster - thanks for the detailed explanation. I have sometimes found old phenolic/micarta at machine shop auctions, so that gives something to be a little more informed about.

Once tried making a solid linen phenolic integral tip a couple years ago on a PH break shaft.:rolleyes: Made a capped phenolic ferrule, with about 3/16" of solid red linen phenolic in the end. Shaped a large radius on that and chalked it up. It worked good for about 3 breaks, then the end popped off where the tenon ended :frown: (grain was crossways)

"Live and learn...and have fun"

I like that.

smt
 
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Kim Bye

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Okay, so...

Composition: There is a distinct difference between the two. They're both made by layering sheets sent in an epoxy, then pressed & heated until solid. The sheets being either linen or paper.

Visual: Linen micarta will have a distinct visual weave pattern, similar to linen phenolics of today. Paper micarta will have a "grain" similar to ivory, but no discernible weave.

Both are still made today. In my research, I've meet several custom micarta makers on Instagram that will make a custom batch for you. They mostly cater to knife makers. The problem is you have to order in a thickness suitable for ferrules. And the price is almost as expensive as finding the vintage material.

I've acquired several versions of vintage paper material, as well. GE made Textolite, another manufacturer made Marbalite, and so on. All are micarta; all are paper based. The "good stuff" most refer to, is actually Westinghouse Ivorite paper micarta. Westinghouse made other paper micarta - I have samples that are not Ivorite but still paper. Ivorite is what the majority of the vintage cue makers used. It appeared as ivory, was cheaper, not as brittle, and played well. However, as it aged, it turned the pale yellow you see on vintage shafts.

The reason for the price you pay, is once the vintage material is gone - it's gone. One has to search, and I mean dig, for a source thick enough for a ferrule. Some old cue makers still have some. Knife makers stock is usually too thin - even so, good luck getting them to let loose. It takes time, and then money to find it. All that is reflected in the price.

I'm a sucker for nostalgia, and sometimes get wrapped up in a subject. I've been researching this product for years. I've talked to Westinghouse employees, GE employees, Atlas Fiber employees (even the VP), cue makers, and knife makers in my search for information. And it's taken years to accumulate factual information, and would take way to long to type it out here. I hope this little bit helps.

I would love to know more. I did a google search for ivorite paper, not much came up. What kind of paper was used?
It cant be that expensive to make a batch, epoxy doesnt cost much, and all you need are a mold and some clams. The new stuff you have seen, how close is that to the Westinghouse material?
 

JoeyInCali

Maker of Joey Bautista Cues
Silver Member
The good yellow stuff.
Brown one is the current one you can get .
Different make-up.


Years ago, cue maker Mason H. talked to Norplex and made a volume order of melamine and paper micarta . The melamine was pitty. The paper micarta was really good and was not cheap. Somehow all that ended .
I still use his material to this day as there is not a better substitute .
It is much lighter than Juma but hits as hard.
 

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Buster8001

Did you say shrubberies?
Silver Member
I would love to know more. I did a google search for ivorite paper, not much came up. What kind of paper was used?
It cant be that expensive to make a batch, epoxy doesnt cost much, and all you need are a mold and some clams. The new stuff you have seen, how close is that to the Westinghouse material?

I do not know the type of paper used. One of the pieces of the formula lost to time.

It's not just paper, epoxy, and clamps. You need a press that has heating elements. The press needs to have at least a ton's worth of pressure to press sheets of paper in an epoxy bonding agent to end up thick enough for around 5/8ths for a ferrule. While pressing it needs heat, or to be baked, to "set". Start watching the videos of unique_micarta on Instagram. He did my custom order of paper micarta, trying to replicate Ivorite. He caters to knife makers. Just ask him for a batch, watch him laugh, then wait for the quote.
Cory Barnhart has my custom batch, as I was having him test it out and cut it for me. I'll see if I can stop by for a few pictures.

Nothing today can replicate Ivorite. At least, not that I've found in a decade of searching and having samples tested.
 
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Buster8001

Did you say shrubberies?
Silver Member
The good yellow stuff.
Brown one is the current one you can get .
Different make-up.


Years ago, cue maker Mason H. talked to Norplex and made a volume order of melamine and paper micarta . The melamine was pitty. The paper micarta was really good and was not cheap. Somehow all that ended .
I still use his material to this day as there is not a better substitute .
It is much lighter than Juma but hits as hard.

Good info on Mason, Joey. And, nice stash!
 

Buster8001

Did you say shrubberies?
Silver Member
Paper micarta is still available, both commercially and by custom order. None matches vintage ivorite.

I've wasted more material by sending out samples for review or testing than I have left to be used.
 

pt109

WO double hemlock
Silver Member
The ferrules on my ‘68 Joss and Richard Black was found in a war surplus store by a
cue maker in my are....had something to do with WWII landing craft...
...the one on the Joss is 39 years old and still as tight as the day it was put on.
...he said the main ingredient was card board...I love the hit...
...like not having a ferrule

4558C215-51B1-425B-8E96-89DB17C33262.jpg
 

HueblerHustler7

AndrewActionG
Silver Member
The good yellow stuff.
Brown one is the current one you can get .
Different make-up.


Years ago, cue maker Mason H. talked to Norplex and made a volume order of melamine and paper micarta . The melamine was pitty. The paper micarta was really good and was not cheap. Somehow all that ended .
I still use his material to this day as there is not a better substitute .
It is much lighter than Juma but hits as hard.

Joey got some GOLD! Although I do love that Mason H ( norplex ) stuff you sold to me years ago freaking amazing hit!
 
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