Mike Siegel wins 40K

BasementDweller said:

I'm really growing tired of constantly having to repeat myself on here. I was just mentioning his actual technique and how watching him today and comparing him to how I remember him is different. I thought he was picture perfect but looking I see he was not. He would constantly swoop his cue all over the place on his stroke and he would even move his body quite a bit. By comparison most of today's top players more closely resemble the robotic approach of snooker players.

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Perhaps you "have to repeat yourself", because you come across as a jerk in the way you communicate, and people have learned through experience to dislike your posts.

As far as his "swooping", there was a technique of pivoting through the cue that worked very well on slow cloth, with high deflection cues, while hitting firmly.

Modern pros do not play on slow cloth, and many play with much lower deflection cues, and extremely hard/firm hits are no longer necessary on 95% of pool shots these days.

So, you are judging his stroke, without the requisite knowledge of WHY he stroked that way.

Somebody quote me, as ToiletDweller has me blocked.

ShortBusRuss said:

Perhaps you "have to repeat yourself", because you come across as a jerk in the way you communicate, and people have learned through experience to dislike your posts.

As far as his "swooping", there was a technique of pivoting through the cue that worked very well on slow cloth, with high deflection cues, while hitting firmly.

Modern pros do not play on slow cloth, and many play with much lower deflection cues, and extremely hard/firm hits are no longer necessary on 95% of pool shots these days.

So, you are judging his stroke, without the requisite knowledge of WHY he stroked that way.

Somebody quote me, as ToiletDweller has me blocked.

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Gladly.

Sigel had the best mechanics of anyone in the game. It's why he has the record he does.

All the best,
WW

More top-heavy than Dolly Parton

Just before the finals, they posted the payouts - 40k 1st and 6,258 2nd?!?

Mamma mia! Did they do the good ol’ saver back in the day?

mikemosconi said:

Really? You think there are MANY players today who are BETTER than Mike was in his PRIME at 14.1 or 9 ball - just what about Mike's fundamentals that are NOT GOOD today- just curious as to your reasoning, as I don't see it- please educate me. Thanks

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I may assist you on this one with a short list of what Mike was doing wrong with his fundamentals. First and foremost his final delivery was NOT straight,he had an offset in his stroke. Second his grip was too firm making his cue go up on numerous occasion after the contact with cueball,also he moved his head while hitting the cueball. That being said Mike had repeatable technique and despite all those serious flaws he played incredible game of pool. But the fact that you were not able to see those obvious flaws doesnt mean they were not there. And honestly? Mike having those flaws would be just one of many very strong players in todays game,he wouldnt be definitely as dominant today with his prime game as he was in 80s. Hope this helps

marek said:

I may assist you on this one with a short list of what Mike was doing wrong with his fundamentals. First and foremost his final delivery was NOT straight,he had an offset in his stroke. Second his grip was too firm making his cue go up on numerous occasion after the contact with cueball,also he moved his head while hitting the cueball. That being said Mike had repeatable technique and despite all those serious flaws he played incredible game of pool. But the fact that you were not able to see those obvious flaws doesnt mean they were not there. And honestly? Mike having those flaws would be just one of many very strong players in todays game,he wouldnt be definitely as dominant today with his prime game as he was in 80s. Hope this helps

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Question is, how dominate would Mike be if todays players we competing against him in HIS timeframe of pool tables, cloth, and balls...and NO jump cues!!!

Denis The Kid said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUJ_UW9X3pM

Older tournament for those that have not seen this before. He beats Parica, Garcia, and finally Varner.

Efren was asked who his toughest opponent was throughout his carreer. His reply, Mike Siegel.

Enjoy

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Is Jose Garcia the guy who owns a room in NJ somewhere? Vineland maybe? I know he's from that area.

Danimal said:

Just before the finals, they posted the payouts - 40k 1st and 6,258 2nd?!?

Mamma mia! Did they do the good ol’ saver back in the day?

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I remember this now. They had guaranteed $40,000 on top. I think Mike and Parica saved 10K on this match.

Denis The Kid said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUJ_UW9X3pM

Older tournament for those that have not seen this before. He beats Parica, Garcia, and finally Varner.

Efren was asked who his toughest opponent was throughout his carreer. His reply, Mike Siegel.

Enjoy

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Good find, thanks. Watching the Siegel vs parica match now. Announcer keeps calling parica Efren lololol. Also said "pool is hot right now"...lol, miss the old days...

jalapus logan said:

Good find, thanks. Watching the Siegel vs parica match now. Announcer keeps calling parica Efren lololol. Also said "pool is hot right now"...lol, miss the old days...

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It was just in the process of exploding. TCOM had come out and pool WAS hot no doubt.

As far as Sigel's technique is concerned maybe saying "pretty bad" is going too far but it certainly wasn't as rock solid as I remembered it being. A nice comparison would be Alex Higgins in snooker versus today's players. They are just so much more still. You can even see this evolution with the Filipino players from Efren, Luat, Parica, and Bustamante to Orcullo and company, and now James Aranus. If you can't see how the top players technique has improved since Sigel's time then you're not looking for it. I don't think this can all be just explained away by table conditions but that's probably a small part of it.

BasementDweller said:

As far as Sigel's technique is concerned maybe saying "pretty bad" is going too far but it certainly wasn't as rock solid as I remembered it being. A nice comparison would be Alex Higgins in snooker versus today's players. They are just so much more still. You can even see this evolution with the Filipino players from Efren, Luat, Parica, and Bustamante to Orcullo and company, and now James Aranus. If you can't see how the top players technique has improved since Sigel's time then you're not looking for it. I don't think this can all be just explained away by table conditions but that's probably a small part of it.

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HUH????????? Comparing Sigel to Higgins??? Sigel never moved around like that. I've seen him play IN PERSON more than once and all he did was make EVERY-thing he shot at. His record pretty much speaks for itself. I guess you'd probably nitpick the MonaLisa or the Sistine Chapel too, huh??? Oh BTW, I've seen Efren and Busti play and their stroke mechanics aren't "textbook" either but guess what, the balls go in. A lot. Really like to hear your breakdown of Allen Hopkins game. Not really.

I like that you mention art because pool is sort of part art and part science. Sigel no doubt had the art part down perfectly. Sigel is an all-time great no doubt. All the players you mentioned are great too, but time marches on and the science part -- technique improves over time. Michael Jordan would have been a better player if he could have shot like Steph Curry does now.

Like you I thought Sigel had perfect technique. For his time, he was probably among the best. I'm guessing Buddy Hall would be right up there too but I may be surprised what I see if I reviewed some of his old footage.

You can call it nitpicking if you like since I suppose it is, but I just find it interesting.

BasementDweller said:

I like that you mention art because pool is sort of part art and part science. Sigel no doubt had the art part down perfectly. Sigel is an all-time great no doubt. All the players you mentioned are great too, but time marches on and the science part -- technique improves over time. Michael Jordan would have been a better player if he could have shot like Steph Curry does now.

Like you I thought Sigel had perfect technique. For his time, he was probably among the best. I'm guessing Buddy Hall would be right up there too but I may be surprised what I see if I reviewed some of his old footage.

You can call it nitpicking if you like since I suppose it is, but I just find it interesting.

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What's the point of this? The object is to get the job done. Hyper-dissecting somebody's technique, imo, is a colossal waste of time. BTW, i don't think i ever said Sigel had perfect technique. NO ONE does. Today's players play on different cloth and get to use jump cues. The fast cloth has taken power-pool and turned into tap-tap pool. Different? Yes. Better? Not so much. Believe what you want.

I agree with you about the table conditions changing the game and it's not all good.

I am guilty as charged of dissecting his technique and all things pool related for that matter on here. That's what I think a pool forum is all about. It's definitely better than spreading memes on FB.

Have a good one.

I remember when Efren first came over here with his pump handle stroke. No one thought he could really play that way and beat all our best players. But he damn sure did, over and over again at every game we could come up with. He never played one game of One Pocket in his life until he saw it being played over here. Rather than eschew it as not worth his time, he sat and watched the best players (Grady, Hopkins, Rempe, Sigel, Mizerak, Fusco, Varner) and studied what they were doing. He went to Chicago and was tutored for a few months by Billy Incardona and Freddie the Beard, and then he emerged to take on all our champion players.

Keith used to spot Efren 9-7, but pretty soon he was the one getting a spot and still losing. One by one Efren went through the One Pocket world and took them all down, until he was number one. He stayed that way for the next twenty years. He never did get that stroke thing worked out though.

The hustlers laughed at young Hoppe, Allen Hopkins, with his Ivy league look and little punch stroke. They quit laughing when he started taking all their money. And then their was the diminutive Nick Varner, a wisp of a man, who looked like a lost college kid in a den of outlaws. No way could he generate any power with that frail little body of his. And who was he to stand up there to the top hustlers of that era. They would just blow him away, right. WRONG! Nick did the blowing away and in the process got the respect of every pool player on the planet. He even went all the way to the Philippines to take on the current money ball king back then. None other than the great Efren. When the smoke cleared, Nick was the new money ball king of the Philippines!

One last thing. I don't see anyone today who had a more solid stance and stroke than Mr. Buddy Hall. He was textbook! The man didn't budge and his game was bullet proof from start to finish. He looked the same after twenty hours of play as he did on the first rack!

jay helfert said:

One last thing. I don't see anyone today who had a more solid stance and stroke than Mr. Buddy Hall. He was textbook! The man didn't budge and his game was bullet proof from start to finish. He looked the same after twenty hours of play as he did on the first rack!

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And the only one to beat Efren from the very start ( when Efren first appeared at Red's and beat every living human ), even though it's been said thousands of times it was a one-off, because Efren was "tired". Personally? I think it was definitely a case of Efren being tired... of playing Buddy.

LOTS of the people most in the know in pool have said Buddy's the greatest 9 ball player for the cheese that ever lived. I can't see any point in arguing...

But, then, as I'm sure a ton of people would agree, what do *I* know...?

Michael Andros said:

And the only one to beat Efren from the very start ( when Efren first appeared and beat every living human ), even though it's been said thousands of times it was a one-off, because Efren was "tired". Personally? I think it was definitely a case of Efren being tired... of playing Buddy.

LOTS of the people most in the know in pool have said Buddy's the greatest 9 ball player for the cheese that ever lived. I can't see any point in arguing...

But, then, as I'm sure a ton of people would agree, what do *I* know...?

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When Efren roasted everybody's nuts at Red's the ONE guy that his handlers didn't want to mess with was the Rifleman. When Buddy lived in Tulsa he got out of line about twice a week if that. His cueball control was truly surreal. Good guy too. If i had some dumb question he always took the time to explain his answers. Being around him, Matlock, Dick Lane and Fat Randy was like free tuition to Pool U.

garczar said:

When Efren roasted everybody's nuts at Red's the ONE guy that his handlers didn't want to mess with was the Rifleman. When Buddy lived in Tulsa he got out of line about twice a week if that. His cueball control was truly surreal. Good guy too. If i had some dumb question he always took the time to explain his answers. Being around him, Matlock, Dick Lane and Fat Randy was like free tuition to Pool U.

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Yup... I consider myself extremely fortunate I got to spend literally hundreds of hours over 5 or 6 years watching him play and even speaking with him a few times, when he lived in Tampa.

One thing about being a superstar as far as your ability to get play is, as most of you know, the hill gets steeper and steeper the longer you stay in one place. By the time Buddy left this area, he was giving the most UNGODLY games up and STILL WINNING. Back in the 70s to mid 80s or so, there was a set of twins who were at Bakers and Varsity practically every day, Ronnie and Roy Guest. They both played fairly sporty, Roy playing maybe a ball better. And both would bet it up when they thought they had at least an even chance let alone the dead nuts. So they both had some gamble. So, for whatever reason, one night at the Varsity, Roy thought it would be a good idea to get the 2 ball from Buddy. Ummmm... oops. It was BBQ Guest on the menu that night. I don't think he ever won a *game*. T.R. was staking Mr. Hall and he was sitting there, collecting, with a half smile on his face the entire time.

Yeah... Buddy didn't book many losers. For the cheese, I honestly don't remember him ever booking one. I'm sure he did once in a blue moon, but... not often.

metallicane said:

Loved watching Sigel play. Still do. Hate listening to his wife sob. Holy crap just STFU.

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Question: Why do we not see the player's wives come down these days and hug and kiss their men after they've won a big match?

Answer: Because they're all at home holding down jobs so the family can have food on the table and a roof over their heads. :thumbup:

Maniac (the times have definitely changed)

Michael Andros said:

Yup... I consider myself extremely fortunate I got to spend literally hundreds of hours over 5 or 6 years watching him play and even speaking with him a few times, when he lived in Tampa.

One thing about being a superstar as far as your ability to get play is, as most of you know, the hill gets steeper and steeper the longer you stay in one place. By the time Buddy left this area, he was giving the most UNGODLY games up and STILL WINNING. Back in the 70s to mid 80s or so, there was a set of twins who were at Bakers and Varsity practically every day, Ronnie and Roy Guest. They both played fairly sporty, Roy playing maybe a ball better. And both would bet it up when they thought they had at least an even chance let alone the dead nuts. So they both had some gamble. So, for whatever reason, one night at the Varsity, Roy thought it would be a good idea to get the 2 ball from Buddy. Ummmm... oops. It was BBQ Guest on the menu that night. I don't think he ever won a *game*. T.R. was staking Mr. Hall and he was sitting there, collecting, with a half smile on his face the entire time.

Yeah... Buddy didn't book many losers. For the cheese, I honestly don't remember him ever booking one. I'm sure he did once in a blue moon, but... not often.

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As far as I know Dan Louie was the only player to beat Buddy when he was in Shreveport. The only player Buddy avoided playing was Parica. So did everybody else. :wink: