Another Swanne controversy

dabarbr · Feb 17, 2014

During one of the matches a players takes a cut on the nine ball to win the game. It's a thin cut that is hit fairly slow. The nine ball reaches the jaws of the pocket and then appears to stop there. After a short period of time it falls in. It would hard to say for sure how long it seemed to be motionless before it fell.

Let's say it was close to what I believe is the five second rule.
While the nine ball appeared to be motionless the cue ball is still rolling down to the far end of the table. On an average table it takes a slow moving ball about four or five seconds to travel the length of the table. The nine ball fell just as the cue ball came to rest.

Now the question is when does the clock on the hanging ball start. Does it start when the object ball appears to stop moving or does it start when the cue ball comes to rest?

bfdlad · Feb 17, 2014

The shot is not over until all balls have come to a rest. What if he scratched on the shot? Could he say it don't count?

David Marcus · Feb 17, 2014

If I remember correctly....

dabarbr said:
During one of the matches a players takes a cut on the nine ball to win the game. It's a thin cut that is hit fairly slow. The nine ball reaches the jaws of the pocket and then appears to stop there. After a short period of time it falls in. It would hard to say for sure how long it seemed to be motionless before it fell.

Let's say it was close to what I believe is the five second rule.
While the nine ball appeared to be motionless the cue ball is still rolling down to the far end of the table. On an average table it takes a slow moving ball about four or five seconds to travel the length of the table. The nine ball fell just as the cue ball came to rest.

Now the question is when does the clock on the hanging ball start. Does it start when the object ball appears to stop moving or does it start when the cue ball comes to rest?

The rule used to be that the ball counts as long as the opposing player has not yet "approached the table".

ideologist · Feb 17, 2014

If any balls are still moving, the table is completely I'm play.

TWOFORPOOL · Feb 17, 2014

David Marcus said:
The rule used to be that the ball counts as long as the opposing player has not yet "approached the table".

I thought it was the other way around. When the playing shooter leaves the table. The 5 second rule also applies so the player can't stay there forever.

DogsPlayingPool · Feb 17, 2014

From the WPA Rules definitions:

8.2 Shot
A shot begins when the tip contacts the cue ball due to a forward stroke motion of the cue stick. A shot ends when all balls in play have stopped moving and spinning. A shot is said to be legal if the shooter did not foul during the shot.

From the BCAPL rule book definitions:

Shot
All events related to the motion of the balls from the time the cue tip contacts the cue ball until all of the balls have come to rest.

So it would seem to me the 5 second rule would apply as soon as all balls have both stopped rolling and spinning in place.

super195v · Feb 17, 2014

Correct, so in other words if the cue ball is still moving or JUST stopped, that nine ball COUNTS

DogsPlayingPool · Feb 17, 2014

super195v said:
Correct, so in other words if the cue ball is still moving or JUST stopped, that nine ball COUNTS

Not the way I read what you just wrote. The 9 doesn't count if the cue ball is still moving. I'd say the 9 ball doesn't count until ALL balls come to rest.

EL'nino · Feb 17, 2014

the shooter must remain at the table for the 5 second rule to apply.

Neil · Feb 17, 2014

Sad that only one person bothered to even check the rules, let alone know them, and sorry, but you posted the wrong rule. Here's the rule for those that like to play by the rules:

8.3 Ball Pocketed
A ball is pocketed if it comes to rest in a pocket below the playing surface or enters the ball return system. A ball near the brink of a pocket partly supported by another ball is considered pocketed if removal of the supporting ball would cause the ball to fall into the pocket.
If a ball stops near the edge of a pocket, and remains apparently motionless for five seconds, it is not considered pocketed if it later falls into the pocket by itself. See 1.7 Balls Settling for other details. During that five second period, the referee should ensure that no other shot is taken. An object ball that rebounds from a pocket back onto the playing surface is not a pocketed ball. If the cue ball contacts an already pocketed ball, the cue ball will be considered pocketed whether it rebounds from the pocket or not. The referee will remove pocketed object balls from full or nearly full pockets, but it is the shooter’s responsibility to see that this duty is performed.

Hits 'em Hard · Feb 17, 2014

Neil said:
Sad that only one person bothered to even check the rules, let alone know them, and sorry, but you posted the wrong rule. Here's the rule for those that like to play by the rules:

8.3 Ball Pocketed
A ball is pocketed if it comes to rest in a pocket below the playing surface or enters the ball return system. A ball near the brink of a pocket partly supported by another ball is considered pocketed if removal of the supporting ball would cause the ball to fall into the pocket.
If a ball stops near the edge of a pocket, and remains apparently motionless for five seconds, it is not considered pocketed if it later falls into the pocket by itself. See 1.7 Balls Settling for other details. During that five second period, the referee should ensure that no other shot is taken. An object ball that rebounds from a pocket back onto the playing surface is not a pocketed ball. If the cue ball contacts an already pocketed ball, the cue ball will be considered pocketed whether it rebounds from the pocket or not. The referee will remove pocketed object balls from full or nearly full pockets, but it is the shooter’s responsibility to see that this duty is performed.

And if the cue ball is still moving, or any ball is still moving, the table is still considered in play, so that rule doesn't count until all balls have stopped moving.

shinobi · Feb 17, 2014

So I guess the question is, does the 5 seconds count from the moment all other balls (including the cue ball) stop moving, or does it count from when the ball gets to the edge of the pocket, appears to be motionless, but then falls in?

Given that the rules seem a little vague, combined with the fact that the OP says it probably was right around the 5 second mark while the cue ball was still moving, I'd be inclined to consider it a legally pocketed ball.

Neil · Feb 17, 2014

Hits 'em Hard said:
And if the cue ball is still moving, or any ball is still moving, the table is still considered in play, so that rule doesn't count until all balls have stopped moving.

The cb moving has nothing to do with the rule. The cb moving has a lot to do with when the persons turn is over and the next persons turn starts.

Neil · Feb 17, 2014

shinobi said:
So I guess the question is, does the 5 seconds count from the moment all other balls (including the cue ball) stop moving, or does it count from when the ball gets to the edge of the pocket, appears to be motionless, but then falls in?

Given that the rules seem a little vague, combined with the fact that the OP says it probably was right around the 5 second mark while the cue ball was still moving, I'd be inclined to consider it a legally pocketed ball.

If there's no ref to count, and it is close to 5 sec., but no player counted either, the shot always goes to the shooter.

DogsPlayingPool · Feb 17, 2014

Neil said:
The cb moving has nothing to do with the rule. The cb moving has a lot to do with when the persons turn is over and the next persons turn starts.

I understand that rule Neil, but how can it be considered pocketed even if it fell and came to rest within 5 seconds without regard to whether all balls have come to rest? What if while the CB is traveling around the table the 9 ball stops in front of the whole, appears to stop momentarily, and then 2 seconds later falls and comes to rest in the hole - while the cue ball, still rolling, subsequently finds a pocket?

Forget for a moment that the OB hesitated on the lip and then fell. In any normal shot when you pocket a ball it does not count as a point or a win until all balls have come to rest and there has been no scratch on the shot.

Now, I wouldn't argue that the 5 second clock begins from when the OB stopped in front of the pocket, but the rule about whether the ball counts doesn't apply until all balls have come to a stop.

JC · Feb 17, 2014

I shot at a hanger in league the other night that fell in when the cue ball was half way there and I scratched because the object ball was gone. The opponent said tough shit, it's a scratch. This happened in the middle of my run in 8 ball, not after the other person left.

I let it go because I didn't want to argue about it although I know that wasn't the right ruling. As league president I have to not appear to be a bully right?

I won the game eventually anyway, go figure.

JC

Neil · Feb 17, 2014

DogsPlayingPool said:
I understand that rule Neil, but how can it be considered pocketed even if it fell and came to rest within 5 seconds without regard to whether all balls have come to rest? What if while the CB is traveling around the table the 9 ball stops in front of the whole, appears to stop momentarily, and then 2 seconds later falls and comes to rest in the hole - while the cue ball, still rolling, subsequently finds a pocket?

Forget for a moment that the OB hesitated on the lip and then fell. In any normal shot when you pocket a ball it does not count as a point or a win until all balls have come to rest and there has been no scratch on the shot.

Now, I wouldn't argue that the 5 second clock begins from when the OB stopped in front of the pocket, but the rule about whether the ball counts doesn't apply until all balls have come to a stop.

You are confusing the two rules. For the hanging ball, it's 5 seconds start when it stops moving. If it falls within those five seconds without outside interference , it is a legal make, PROVIDED that all other rules are met.

Now, to the other rule, the shooters turn is not over until the balls stop moving. So, if the 9 were to hang for 5 seconds, and then fall, that doesn't necessarily mean the game is over. The game isn't over until the last ball stops moving. So if one were to scratch after that five seconds, it's not a win, but a foul and opponent gets ball in hand on a spotted 9 ball. It would be spotted, and not replaced, because it was a pocketed ball.

JoeyA · Feb 17, 2014

What would happen if the object ball was hit thinly and softly and just manages to reach and sit in the pocket for more than five seconds, while the cue ball goes four rails around the table, taking more than 5 seconds to go 4 rails and then as the cue ball approaches the object ball sitting in the pocket, then the object ball falls into the pocket just after the 5 second wait and then the cueball follows the object ball into the pocket?

JoeyA

Neil · Feb 17, 2014

JoeyA said:
What would happen if the object ball was hit thinly and softly and just manages to reach and sit in the pocket for more than five seconds, while the cue ball goes four rails around the table, taking more than 5 seconds to go 4 rails and then as the cue ball approaches the object ball sitting in the pocket, then the object ball falls into the pocket just after the 5 second wait and then the cueball follows the object ball into the pocket?

JoeyA

1.7 Balls Settling
A ball may settle slightly after it appears to have stopped, possibly due to slight imperfections in the ball or the table. Unless this causes a ball to fall into a pocket, it is considered a normal hazard of play, and the ball will not be moved back. If a ball falls into a pocket as the result of such settling, it is restored as closely as possible to its original position. If a settling ball falls into a pocket during or just prior to a shot, and this has an effect on the shot, the referee will restore the position and the shot will be replayed. The shooter is not penalized for shooting while a ball is settling. See also 8.3 Ball Pocketed.

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JoeyA · Feb 17, 2014

Neil said:
1.7 Balls Settling
A ball may settle slightly after it appears to have stopped, possibly due to slight imperfections in the ball or the table. Unless this causes a ball to fall into a pocket, it is considered a normal hazard of play, and the ball will not be moved back. If a ball falls into a pocket as the result of such settling, it is restored as closely as possible to its original position. If a settling ball falls into a pocket during or just prior to a shot, and this has an effect on the shot, the referee will restore the position and the shot will be replayed. The shooter is not penalized for shooting while a ball is settling. See also 8.3 Ball Pocketed.

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So does this rule says that the cue ball will be repositioned to where it originally started from and so will the object ball and that the shooter gets another opportunity to shoot the same shot over? If so, that sounds reasonable. Just can't wait to hear his opponent whine about where the two balls were actually located.

JoeyA

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