Tips of English

ENGLISH!

ENGLISH!

Banned
Silver Member
FranCrimi said:
Rick, remember that you don't have answer to Neil or anyone here. You get into these flame wars because you keep responding to their attacks. A response or two are understandable, but you have to be the one to cut it off because they won't. Cutting it off doesn't mean they win. It means you are ending it because they are incapable of ending it.
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Thanks Fran,

I'm slowly learning, but I have an issue when others don't convey the truth of matters. I'm learning to respond in a much shorter & less time wasting manner.

When others do what they do, they tend to make themselves irrelevant own their own & I'm starting to realize that there is not a need for me to help them in making that apparent.

Best Wishes to You & ALL.
 
pooltchr

pooltchr

Prof. Billiard Instructor
Silver Member
skipbales said:
Most pool players and instructors speak in terms of "tips of English". I believe the most common interpretation of that is the tip of the cue stick you see when looking at the cue ball. In fact most diagrams show it that way. A lot gets lost in understanding with this as a basic measurement. Is it an 11 mm or 13 mm shaft? dime shape or nickle? and so forth.

To put 3 of those tips of English on a cue ball is to move a 13 mm shaft off center by 39 mm which is about 1.5 inches and is off the cue ball. Dr. Dave gets around this by using percentages of maximum as a reference.

That is OK but I recently found a description I like better. On one of the many instructional cds I have, the instructor pointed out that only a small portion of the tip comes in contact with the cue ball. He uses a circle that is a little more than 1/8" (sorry, I am just not a metric kind of guy) to represent that point. I think it is around 2-3 millimeters. He calls this a "tip of English".

This makes sense to me. You can fit 3 of these around the cue ball and remain within the miscue limits. Of course you don't "see" this point when you look down the cue, and you have to realize it is NOT the center of your cue stick, it is going to be one of the edges, etc. but it did help me visualize "tips of English" in a way I could more readily relate to. The size of the cue is less a factor with this method. The shape is more relevant but not a significant issue.

With that measurement in mind things like 1/4 tip of English take on a new perspective.

I am curious to know what others think of when they refer to "tips of English" and how they use it. When you guys say put about a half tip of right on the ball, how far from the center line are you moving over and what part of the cue tip are you asking to have contact that spot? As you move to the right the contact point of the cue is moving to the left. You start out center of the tip (actually slightly above center due to the downward angle) and move gradually to the left edge of the stick as you move right.
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Just to return to the original posted question, and maybe dilute the bickering going on in the thread, When I work with my students, I show them a chalk mark on the cue ball. This represents the amount of the tip that actually makes contact. If this is your definition of one tip, then you have 4 tips of spin available to apply to a shot. Those 4 positions, will give 4 different rebound angles, assuming all other factors such as speed remain constant.
 
skipbales

skipbales

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Thanks

pooltchr said:
Just to return to the original posted question, and maybe dilute the bickering going on in the thread, When I work with my students, I show them a chalk mark on the cue ball. This represents the amount of the tip that actually makes contact. If this is your definition of one tip, then you have 4 tips of spin available to apply to a shot. Those 4 positions, will give 4 different rebound angles, assuming all other factors such as speed remain constant.
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Yes, I like this for my own purposes. But as I mentioned if you use it to communicate with other players they think you are nuts. Try telling someone to put 4 tips of English on a ball. ;)

Thanks for all the comments and support. I didn't mean to start an argument and suspect the hard feelings run deeper than this issue. I am just here to learn and participate.
 
ENGLISH!

ENGLISH!

Banned
Silver Member
Just a continuation of thought.

I've been using english since I was 13 & am now 62.

I've never thought about english in any quantitative amount other than the results that I wanted.

By that I mean that I've never thought 1 or 2 tips because it might actually be 1.5 or 2.25 tips.

To me it's about how much is needed TODAY, right now, to get the cue ball to go there. Over time if one uses english often one can & should develop a feel for it & can 'feel' how much spin & the effect that it will yield.

It's much like Ms. Crimi & PJ said.

What will get the CB to go there today & not that 1 tip will result in moving the ball exactly 1 diamond. (maybe it's 1.2 diamonds today) & how often is the CB in the exact position as in those 'rules' (of thumb).

I understand the thinking but it is just an approximated 'guide line' & is not a definitive exact rule.

Each Individual will have to find what actually works best for them as an individual. I prefer to trust my subconscious feel over a mechanical consciously calculated method based on a supposed 'rule'.

Others may prefer that 'rule' method & whatever is best for the individual is what they should try to do.

Best Wishes to ALL
 
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skipbales

skipbales

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Clarification

ENGLISH! said:
Just a continuation of thought.

Others may prefer that 'rule' method & whatever is best for the individual is what they should try to do.

Best Wishes to ALL
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Feel and rules are not the issue I was discussing. How I apply it or what you or I do with that information is unrelated. I just wanted to know what they meant as far as the distance from center they were recommending. Clearly there isn't a universal definition and yet it is a very common way of explaining things.

My question was what do instructors here mean when they say things like "put on one tip of right English". I think I have a pretty clear understanding of how the term is used here and that is all I was looking for.
 
ENGLISH!

ENGLISH!

Banned
Silver Member
skipbales said:
Feel and rules are not the issue I was discussing. How I apply it or what you or I do with that information is unrelated. I just wanted to know what they meant as far as the distance from center they were recommending. Clearly there isn't a universal definition and yet it is a very common way of explaining things.

My question was what do instructors here mean when they say things like "put on one tip of right English". I think I have a pretty clear understanding of how the term is used here and that is all I was looking for.
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As long as you got that for which you were looking.

If I heard an instructor or anyone tell me to put one tip of english on a particular shot, I'd I've to get a clarification as to just what they meant.

It reminds me when I told a new teammate to hit a shot at 4:30 on the second clock & they looked at me with that the WTF you say look.

Best Wishes to YOU & All.
 
Pidge

Pidge

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
For me, when I use a new table the first thing I do is test how the rails react to side spin. I do this by shooting from long rail to long rail trying to get the cue ball to move over 1 diamond. I don't think in tips rather just where on the white will get me one diamond. Don't get sucked into thinking 1 tip = X, it does... But just for that table. Once you find this tip placement then half of that off set from, centre will get you 1 diamond full length of the table... In theory so it's worth testing it out.

I think the tips of English wording is very confusing. A measurement should be for a standardised amount that a player can actually see... Their tip. Say the standard is 13mm then half a tip means lining the edge of the tip with centre cue ball. A quarter of a tip... 1/8 of a tip... Its easier to see when your tip is line up to the cue ball.

Then players who use a smaller diameter tip can then test how much half a top reacts. Line your 11.75mm tips edge up to centre ball going long tail to long tail and see how many diamonds it finishes away from the plain ball path. Its a much easier reference, for new players especially and I believe would make for more consistent results for them when using English.
 
skipbales

skipbales

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
art more than science

ENGLISH! said:
As long as you got that for which you were looking

Best Wishes to YOU & All.
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We play a 3 person team and our internal communication is a killer. It is very hard to tell someone EXACTLY how to hit a shot. It always ends with "why did you hit it so hard" or "you'vt got to put a stroke on that ball" or "I said POCKET SPEED" after the "advice" didn't work out. :rolleyes: It isn't a perfect science but I think most instructors are referring to a spot about the size of the red dot on a red dot cue ball when they say to hit it about a tip below center. A little more than the contact point but less than the cue tip width, essentially 1/3 the way down to max.
 
ENGLISH!

ENGLISH!

Banned
Silver Member
skipbales said:
We play a 3 person team and our internal communication is a killer. It is very hard to tell someone EXACTLY how to hit a shot. It always ends with "why did you hit it so hard" or "you'vt got to put a stroke on that ball" or "I said POCKET SPEED" after the "advice" didn't work out. :rolleyes: It isn't a perfect science but I think most instructors are referring to a spot about the size of the red dot on a red dot cue ball when they say to hit it about a tip below center. A little more than the contact point but less than the cue tip width, essentially 1/3 the way down to max.
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What you say your team mates say after a mis is all true.

That is why one sort of HAS to know a player & how they are going to stroke the ball to be able to give any real good 'advice'. It is spin to speed relative & that one "tip" of english for you is not the same one "tip" of english for me.

Pidge made some good points that I think go along with what Ms. Crimi & I are referring. It's about the result & that will vary so there are different results for that one 3 mm or that one 6.5 mm 'tip' or 1/2 tip.

Each individual needs to know how much it takes for THEM to get a certain result.

Best 2 You & All.
 
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