How would you describe and teach the swipe stroke?
Can you refer me to a video where Earl employs it?
Thanks
Can you refer me to a video where Earl employs it?
Thanks
A question for Fran Re: The swipe stroke.
- Thread starter gregcantrall
- Start date
Do I know what it is? You bet I do. Please don't challenge me on it, Greg. I don't teach it. I won't describe it because I won't join in the AZ flame wars about swipe stroking. I hang out with Earl pretty often, watching him practice. That's my proof.
That's all I'm going to say about it.
No flame war here.
I let this rest for a while as I am only interested in exploring the possible use of various stroke styles.
“Swoop Experiment” ILLUSTRATED PRINCIPLES
Dr. Dave Alciatore, PhD
In conclusion Dr. Dave lists what he perceives to be the advantages and disadvantages of the swipe or swoop.
Online Video NV F.2 demonstrates both types of strokes, shows all of the
procedures used in the experiments, and summarizes all of the results.
I let this rest for a while as I am only interested in exploring the possible use of various stroke styles.
“Swoop Experiment” ILLUSTRATED PRINCIPLES
Dr. Dave Alciatore, PhD
In conclusion Dr. Dave lists what he perceives to be the advantages and disadvantages of the swipe or swoop.
Online Video NV F.2 demonstrates both types of strokes, shows all of the
procedures used in the experiments, and summarizes all of the results.
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Take a look at his diagram of the swoop or swipe stroke. It shows the angle of the cue stick as being angled towards the center of the cue ball. That's a problem. The angle of the cue stick should be perpendicular or near perpendicular ( a slight angle outward is acceptable) to the cue ball at the immediate point of impact, followed by the swooping motion as the tip is on the ball. Also, the point of contact illustrated in the diagram is not a swipe stroke point of contact. It should be closer to the center. When your point of contact is at the edge of the ball, you lose the effect of the swipe. You're just swiping in air.
Before you can truly experiment with the stroke, you first have to know how to perform the stroke. Then you can study interesting things like, squirt variances and variances in tip contact time. Yes. I said variances in tip contact time.
If you're uncertain, try to imagine one of those big plastic balls that you use in a gym. Visualize yourself sitting in front of it. Place your hand on the equator line, near the edge of the ball, and swipe. Your hand leaves the ball pretty quickly. Then try it again, only place your hand closer to the center and swipe. Your hand stays on the ball longer. Why? Because when you begin near the center, you get more of an effect of a combination of forward and sideways motions. When your point of contact is near the edge of the cue ball, you lose the swipe effect. You're basically swiping in the air since the cue ball is already gone.
That's more than I wanted to say about it, but I can see that some players may not have a clear understanding of the stroke. Without that understanding, you aren't going to get very far in your experiments.
Good luck! It's fun to experiment with, really.
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Fairly well stated Fran.
I'll stop there too.
I hope you had a Very Merry Christmas & here's Wishing a Happy & Safe & Healthy New Year for You & ALL of Yours.
Rick
Earl Strickland shot.
Would this shot by Earl be what you call a swipe stroke?
https://youtu.be/6FL5N-j-87o
Here is a shot by Nick Varner labeled Nick Varner-Inside English with a swiping motion.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rH6LlFIZZ8E
Would this shot by Earl be what you call a swipe stroke?
https://youtu.be/6FL5N-j-87o
Here is a shot by Nick Varner labeled Nick Varner-Inside English with a swiping motion.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rH6LlFIZZ8E
I don't believe the tip and ball are in contact long enough for a swooping motion to change anything compared with a straight stroke.
Here's the test: What shot can't be accomplished with a straight stroke?
pj
chgo
It's perfectly logical to enter into an experiment with a hypothesis. Just make sure you actually do experiment, or all you will ever have is a hypothesis with no supporting data.
What I meant by my question is if any shot/shape can be accomplished with a straight stroke, why ever use a swoop stroke? If there's a shot/shape that can only be accomplished with a swoop stroke, what is it?
pj
chgo
But as a formal statement of a hypothesis, that's not quite there yet. I propose the following hypothesis:
There is no shot that requires a swoop stroke to accomplish.
The test is simple in concept: come up with shots and try them with a swoop stroke and a straight stroke. Note which seem to be impossible with a straight stroke. Test them further with a straight stroke.Like any hypothesis, this one can only be disproved and can never be proved.
Here's something for you to consider. What if you can apply English equally with a swoop stroke and the parallel method ----- what is the difference in effect by contacting the cue ball closer to the center as opposed to farther out on the edge of the ball? Less cue ball squirt, perhaps?
And, if in fact, you can achieve the same amount of English by both methods, then how is it possible with the tip closer to center, unless the tip is staying on the ball longer?
It's not always about more or less English, although that is also an interesting consideration as well. This is why you have to experiment.
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How long the tip stays on the ball has very little effect on how much spin you get on the cue ball. If that were not the case, all carom players would be using the softest tip available.
Fran, do you have a specific shot to test the hypothesis with? Do you have a different hypothesis related to swoop?
I don't think it is possible with the tip closer to center - I believe that's a mistaken impression that would be revealed with careful testing.
Yes, but in a controlled way that avoids reinforcing mistaken impressions. I could suggest how if you're interested.
pj
chgo
I think everyone should experiment for themselves. But before they come to any conclusions, they should understand the basics of the swipe stroke, particularly that the the point of contact originates near the center of the cue ball and not on the edge of the ball like so many people think.
That was the only reason for my posts ---- and to give them something to think about.
What type of tip contact are you referring to, Bob? A blunt flat hit, or rolling the tip on the ball from side to side? Is there a difference?
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Fran, I don't believe the point of contact is near the center of the cue ball in reality. From your point of view behind the cb, it may appear that way. But, in reality, to swipe, you must angle the cue.
As soon as you angle the cue, the true center of the cb is not where it was from your perspective with a straight cue stroke. The cb center is determined by the angle of approach.
In reality, you are actually hitting just as far off center with a swipe stroke as if you used a parallel stroke.
The difference being in the direction the cb goes from the squirt of the cb. With a parallel cue, the squirt is away from the shot line, and must be compensated for. With a swipe stroke, the squirt is actually closer to the shot line because you are actually stroking the cb down a different line than with the parallel aim. With the swipe stroke, you are close to the same thing as back-hand english.
interesting perspective and analysis
i never thought of it that way
I'll repeat what I wrote in an earlier post. The swipe stroke starts with the cue perpendicular or slightly angled to the cue ball. I'll add for clarification as an example would be perpendicular to the equator line of the cue ball. The swiping motion takes place once the tip has touched the ball.
No, it's not back hand English. It's a swipe stroke which is why I explained it earlier so that those who don't understand the stroke would have a better understanding.
Happy experimenting!
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I am still looking for a better understanding.
the clip I linked of Earl looks to me like he is swiping upward after a near center contact. Is that "THE" swipe stroke?
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I am still looking for a better understanding.
Hope this helps Greg. I use it when needed shooting softly with a lot of QB action. I've used it from 7 oclock to 5 oclock on the QB. The bridge length is important, mine is 10"
Now that I've thought about this for a few minutes, what your trying to achieve is putting a lot more spin on the QB without using so much cue stick speed.
Efren uses it all the time as do some pro players. Its real handy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOHee4z3abA
Give it a try.
John
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