stun forward and stun back shots

skipbales

skipbales

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Sometimes a pure stop shot leaves you 1-6 inches from a window to hit your next shot. Sometimes it is short of perfect sometimes long. This actually happens a lot of the time, especially for players who look for stop shot patterns.

Dr. Dave calls them stun forward and stun back shots. Tor Lowry mentions them in his new pattern play video and says "all high level players have this shot".

There are at least 3 ways to hit the stun back and two for the stun forward. At distance they are hard shots to be consistent with. I would like to get some feedback on how others execute these shots.

On the stun back, in particular I would like to ask Fran's opinion as I know how she hits draw shots. Here are the 3 approaches.
1. Strike with maximum draw and time the shot to be partial draw at impact. I believe this would be Fran's pick but not sure if she looks at this like a draw shot or stun.
2. Strike the cue where you would with stun but increase the speed just enough to allow slight for draw at impact.
3. Hit a normal stun shot but strike a tiny bit lower to get the partial back spin (or bounce if you prefer).

I can't claim consistency with any of them but seem to do the best with #2.

Stun forward would never employ max top spin and is used when a slow roll will travel too far so that leaves
1. Strike the cue where you would with stun but decrease the speed just enough to allow slight for roll forward at impact.
2. Hit a normal stun shot but strike a tiny bit higher to get the partial forward roll after impact
3. I suppose you could also hit a "drag shot" beginning below center and time it out.

So far I am most consistent with #1 working off the stun shot and varying the speed a little but I am open to input.
 
A

anbukev

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Everybody's consistent stroke is different. My 3 diamond away stop shot is half of tip of bottom while someone else might use 3/4 or even a full tip of bottom. Knowing your consistent/comfortable stroke is important for cue ball control. I looked for information about stun follow and stun draw and found that these two videos helped me tremendously.

https://youtu.be/9YZB6igi8-I

https://youtu.be/96bJBcpHUCM
 
Pidge

Pidge

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
In snooker we call it a stain run through where the ball is hit firm and travels forward 1-20 inches. It is a shot I use most often in snooker and pool. Takes away bad rolls and once learned is much easier to judge the cue balls final resting place.

My tip for both shots it to forget distance for a minute. Always use the same stroke speed for them, no matter the distance. Instead vary the tip position you will hit the cue ball. So for example of the cue ball to object ball distance is 1ft I would hit pure centre ball at stroke speed 4 to make the cue ball roll forward 6 inches. If the distance is 4 ft apart I would still hot pure centre ball but the speed would be 8 for 6 inches of cue ball roll. Its exactly the same for making the cue ball draw back slightly. Same stroke speed but alter the tip position. Its much easier to learn and master something if you do it the same over and over. Players tend to alter the speed then alter the tip position from shot to shot. It takes longer imo to perfect it and become consistent with it.

You could choose to go the other way, keep the tip position the same but alter the speed. Either way is good and will increase your consistency with the shots.
 
skipbales

skipbales

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The approach

anbukev said:
Everybody's consistent stroke is different. My 3 diamond away stop shot is half of tip of bottom while someone else might use 3/4 or even a full tip of bottom. Knowing your consistent/comfortable stroke is important for cue ball control. I looked for information about stun follow and stun draw and found that these two videos helped me tremendously.

https://youtu.be/9YZB6igi8-I

https://youtu.be/96bJBcpHUCM
Click to expand...

I do understand what you are saying and appreciate your comments and the links which I am watching.

The issue I am looking at is a little different. I am wondering which of the various techniques is the simplest. I believe some do the max draw timeout and some do the slight deviation from stun. Both work but I am looking for consistency and attaining proficiency with the least effort. I am starting a series of practice routines and teaching/helping other players with this series of shots. I want to take them down the simplest path. And that is the path I would like to take as well.
 
skipbales

skipbales

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Thanks

Pidge said:
In snooker we call it a stain run through where the ball is hit firm and travels forward 1-20 inches. It is a shot I use most often in snooker and pool. Takes away bad rolls and once learned is much easier to judge the cue balls final resting place.

My tip for both shots it to forget distance for a minute. Always use the same stroke speed for them, no matter the distance. Instead vary the tip position you will hit the cue ball. So for example of the cue ball to object ball distance is 1ft I would hit pure centre ball at stroke speed 4 to make the cue ball roll forward 6 inches. If the distance is 4 ft apart I would still hot pure centre ball but the speed would be 8 for 6 inches of cue ball roll. Its exactly the same for making the cue ball draw back slightly. Same stroke speed but alter the tip position. Its much easier to learn and master something if you do it the same over and over. Players tend to alter the speed then alter the tip position from shot to shot. It takes longer imo to perfect it and become consistent with it.

You could choose to go the other way, keep the tip position the same but alter the speed. Either way is good and will increase your consistency with the shots.
Click to expand...
I really appreciate your input. I seem to favor the speed variation approach so far but I know it is taught both ways. Basically it is still a stun shot with a change in either speed or tip position. I have to learn, for my own game, which I am more consistent at. If I can't keep a constant speed and vary the tip position I have an accuracy issue. If I can't vary the speed and maintain the tip position I have a speed problem.

The one I have the least control with is approaching it as a draw shot with max draw and trying to time it out.
 
skipbales

skipbales

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Cool videos

anbukev said:
Everybody's consistent stroke is different. My 3 diamond away stop shot is half of tip of bottom while someone else might use 3/4 or even a full tip of bottom. Knowing your consistent/comfortable stroke is important for cue ball control. I looked for information about stun follow and stun draw and found that these two videos helped me tremendously.

https://youtu.be/9YZB6igi8-I

https://youtu.be/96bJBcpHUCM
Click to expand...

Thanks for the video links. I particularly like the second one where he increments the tip change based on diamonds.

The shots I am referring to are a hybrid of these two videos. They are slightly less then or more than stop but not in multiple diamond increments. The deviation is much smaller than one diamond. Normally 1-3 inches.

Both videos maintain a constant speed and vary tip position so I see that would be his approach. On these very small corrections it is a tiny tip position change. SO FAR, and only so far, I am most consistent with varying the speed a tiny bit based on a developed feel for what would produce a stop shot. This is the exact issue I am struggling with for these very small increment adjustments. Vary the tip position 1/6" or the speed a tiny bit based on feel.
 
B

bbb

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
i am not a teacher but for me constant stroke speed and variance in tip level works best and is more consistent
if you cab do the wagon wheel drill you can do the stun forward backward shot
jmho
 
Pidge

Pidge

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
skipbales said:
I really appreciate your input. I seem to favor the speed variation approach so far but I know it is taught both ways. Basically it is still a stun shot with a change in either speed or tip position. I have to learn, for my own game, which I am more consistent at. If I can't keep a constant speed and vary the tip position I have an accuracy issue. If I can't vary the speed and maintain the tip position I have a speed problem.

The one I have the least control with is approaching it as a draw shot with max draw and trying to time it out.
Click to expand...
Max draw tip position and altering the speed is a disaster waiting to happen. When you hit with so much spin the slightest of difference in speed makes a big difference to where the cue ball ends up.

Try the draw with about 1 tip of low and find a speed that works to come back 6 inches. Now keep this speed and practise it. Then go half a tip lower at a time with the same speed and notice how the white reacts. I find this the easiest way for short to medium shots. For longer shots like 7-8ft of distance I will hit max draw and alter the speed. They are very feely shots of that makes sense. The best way to be good at them is to practise them over and over.
 
skipbales

skipbales

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Vary the tip distance.

bbb said:
i am not a teacher but for me constant stroke speed and variance in tip level works best and is more consistent
if you cab do the wagon wheel drill you can do the stun forward backward shot
jmho
Click to expand...

Thanks for the input.
 
skipbales

skipbales

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
No max draw

Pidge said:
Max draw tip position and altering the speed is a disaster waiting to happen. When you hit with so much spin the slightest of difference in speed makes a big difference to where the cue ball ends up.

Try the draw with about 1 tip of low and find a speed that works to come back 6 inches. Now keep this speed and practise it. Then go half a tip lower at a time with the same speed and notice how the white reacts. I find this the easiest way for short to medium shots. For longer shots like 7-8ft of distance I will hit max draw and alter the speed. They are very feely shots of that makes sense. The best way to be good at them is to practise them over and over.
Click to expand...

Thanks. This is another vote for tip variation and constant speed.
 
F

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
skipbales said:
Sometimes a pure stop shot leaves you 1-6 inches from a window to hit your next shot. Sometimes it is short of perfect sometimes long. This actually happens a lot of the time, especially for players who look for stop shot patterns.

Dr. Dave calls them stun forward and stun back shots. Tor Lowry mentions them in his new pattern play video and says "all high level players have this shot".

There are at least 3 ways to hit the stun back and two for the stun forward. At distance they are hard shots to be consistent with. I would like to get some feedback on how others execute these shots.

On the stun back, in particular I would like to ask Fran's opinion as I know how she hits draw shots. Here are the 3 approaches.
1. Strike with maximum draw and time the shot to be partial draw at impact. I believe this would be Fran's pick but not sure if she looks at this like a draw shot or stun.
2. Strike the cue where you would with stun but increase the speed just enough to allow slight for draw at impact.
3. Hit a normal stun shot but strike a tiny bit lower to get the partial back spin (or bounce if you prefer).

I can't claim consistency with any of them but seem to do the best with #2.

Stun forward would never employ max top spin and is used when a slow roll will travel too far so that leaves
1. Strike the cue where you would with stun but decrease the speed just enough to allow slight for roll forward at impact.
2. Hit a normal stun shot but strike a tiny bit higher to get the partial forward roll after impact
3. I suppose you could also hit a "drag shot" beginning below center and time it out.

So far I am most consistent with #1 working off the stun shot and varying the speed a little but I am open to input.
Click to expand...

Hey Skipbales,

Well, there are 2 key variables in figuring out which way to shoot the shots. First is how far back or forward you need the cue ball to land. There's a big difference between one and six inches and it could dictate which technique you choose. The second variable is the distance between the two balls.

I'm not going to list every possible scenario, but here's something in general as to how I would play the shots.

If the balls are far apart, I would aim close to the lowest point on the cb and use the speed of the stroke to bring the cue ball back a few inches.

When the balls are close to each other, I would hit slightly below center to bring the cue ball back.

As for moving the cb forward 1-6 inches, I am not a fan of the stun run-through shot when the two balls aren't close to each other. If they're far apart, you have to strike the cb pretty hard and you can't afford to make the slightest error on tip placement or the cb will take off on you at that speed. I find that it's much easier to shoot long shots low if I wanted the cb to move either back or forward a couple of inches.
 
Last edited:
skipbales

skipbales

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Very low on the cue ball approach.

FranCrimi said:
Hey Skipbales,

Well, there are 2 key variables in figuring out which way to shoot the shots. First is how far back or forward you need the cue ball to land. There's a big difference between one and six inches and it could dictate which technique you choose. The second variable is the distance between the two balls.

I'm not going to list every possible scenario, but here's something in general as to how I would play the shots.

If the balls are far apart, I would aim close to the lowest point on the cb and use the speed of the stroke to bring the cue ball back a few inches.

When the balls are close to each other, I would hit slightly below center to bring the cue ball back.

As for moving the cb forward 1-6 inches, I am not a fan of the stun run-through shot when the two balls aren't close to each other. If they're far apart, you have to strike the cb pretty hard and you can't afford to make the slightest error on tip placement or the cb will take off on you at that speed. I find that it's much easier to shoot long shots low if I wanted the cb to move either back or forward a couple of inches.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the input Fran. I was correct in my assessment of which you would favor. Mostly I am thinking of pretty long shots. So a stun forward or back would not appeal to you unless the balls were close or the roll distance was very short, like 1 inch.

While I am not consistent with this approach I see the value. Any technique which lessens the variables is a good approach. Each of the methods eliminates one variable. I have taken your advice for all draw shots and drag shots where the end result is at least one diamond. Perhaps if I got good enough at it I could include shots down to 4" or so but I am not sure I have that in me.

This is exactly the decision I am facing. Which of the 3 approaches is the easiest for me to master. I now have input suggesting each of the 3 methods. :rolleyes:
 
B

bbb

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
skipbales said:
Thanks for the input Fran. I was correct in my assessment of which you would favor. Mostly I am thinking of pretty long shots. So a stun forward or back would not appeal to you unless the balls were close or the roll distance was very short, like 1 inch.

While I am not consistent with this approach I see the value. Any technique which lessens the variables is a good approach. Each of the methods eliminates one variable. I have taken your advice for all draw shots and drag shots where the end result is at least one diamond. Perhaps if I got good enough at it I could include shots down to 4" or so but I am not sure I have that in me.

This is exactly the decision I am facing. Which of the 3 approaches is the easiest for me to master. I now have input suggesting each of the 3 methods. :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

let us know what worked best for you
 
F

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
skipbales said:
Thanks for the input Fran. I was correct in my assessment of which you would favor. Mostly I am thinking of pretty long shots. So a stun forward or back would not appeal to you unless the balls were close or the roll distance was very short, like 1 inch.

While I am not consistent with this approach I see the value. Any technique which lessens the variables is a good approach. Each of the methods eliminates one variable. I have taken your advice for all draw shots and drag shots where the end result is at least one diamond. Perhaps if I got good enough at it I could include shots down to 4" or so but I am not sure I have that in me.

This is exactly the decision I am facing. Which of the 3 approaches is the easiest for me to master. I now have input suggesting each of the 3 methods. :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

Oh, one other thing that's a big factor in how a player shoots a shot --- and that's their playing style. Some players prefer to punch the ball more and other players prefer to spin the ball more.
 
A

anbukev

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Fran is absolutely correct. Any shot that requires power decreases accuracy causing you to miss the shot. Add in distance and you increase your chances of missing even more. This is why I admire snooker players with their ability to pot long distance shots with power and control.

https://youtu.be/PI72mHeXiUo

The one thing I notice why they can have so much accuracy with power shots is that they never move their head. While the eyes lead the body when lining up and getting down on a shot, the head locks the body in place during a shot.
 
skipbales

skipbales

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Summary

bbb said:
let us know what worked best for you
Click to expand...

THANK YOU for you sincere interest!! :smile:

It seems there are two schools of thought I am pursuing. Some instructors teach a constant speed for almost all shots and control distance with cue tip to ball position. CJ Wiley and Tim White talk about this. I love that idea but find varying speed to be much easier on a range of shots.

Others teach more speed control along with certain cue tip to ball positions, such as max low for all draw shots as Fran suggests.

I seem to be falling in between. I am trying to maintain a somewhat consistent speed for a wide range of shots but do adjust speed on others. Where I have trouble with the constant speed idea is when the subtly of change in tip position is too precise. It seems like hitting just a little bit softer is easier then 1/32" lower, etc.

For these two shots I am currently making a tiny speed adjustment to whatever I would normally use to get the stop shot. I don't approach them as draw or follow. I approach then as stun. I tried moving up and down on the cue ball but the adjustment was too tiny. I think it is going to be all about feel and I begin with "what will give me a perfect stop shot" then add just a tiny bit or take away just a tiny bit of speed. It is almost as though I am consciously thinking what would a less than perfect stop shot look like here. I have sure hit enough of those over the years to know what they feel like.

I sincerely appreciate all the input. I invest an incredible amount of time in practice so I hate to waste a couple hundred hours going down a path which ultimately I can never truly master, even if another player might find this path the easiest.
 
Patrick Johnson

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
skipbales said:
Stun forward ...
1. Strike the cue where you would with stun but decrease the speed just enough to allow slight for roll forward at impact.
2. Hit a normal stun shot but strike a tiny bit higher to get the partial forward roll after impact
3. I suppose you could also hit a "drag shot" beginning below center and time it out.
Click to expand...
I don't see the difference in #3...?

pj
chgo
 
skipbales

skipbales

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Cool videos

anbukev said:
Fran is absolutely correct. Any shot that requires power decreases accuracy causing you to miss the shot. Add in distance and you increase your chances of missing even more. This is why I admire snooker players with their ability to pot long distance shots with power and control.

https://youtu.be/PI72mHeXiUo

The one thing I notice why they can have so much accuracy with power shots is that they never move their head. While the eyes lead the body when lining up and getting down on a shot, the head locks the body in place during a shot.
Click to expand...

Great video!! This shows how many different uses there are for this shot. It also points out it is "one of the hardest shots in pool". All of these were "stun run through" or "stun forward" the flip side of the stun back.

Thanks
 
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