If not Simonis, what next?

Dartman · Mar 22, 2010

JB Cases said:
...
I am personally convinced that Milliken is a better cloth than Simonis and Championship. I have NO EXPERTISE to back up my personal opinion. But since I work for the distributor of said brand I am willing to spend my own money to let the customer see if they also concur with my opinion.
...

I'm sure you know I've never knocked MSP. We can dismiss ball marks since they are a standard result of playing on worsted cloth. Some think that ball marks constitute wear and this is not the case. Here's 2 pictures (MSP and Simonis) and you can clearly see the ball marking on both - http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=2061937&postcount=7

Lab tests can be skewed so the only true test of better durability and playability is to blind compare side by side in a real world environment with an equal amount of play with players of comparable ability.

realkingcobra · Mar 22, 2010

JB Cases said:
I was, and am and I agree with all that you say above as a matter of opinion.

SOME people feel that cloth requires a "break-in" period, especially some pros who often say that cloth plays differently in the beginning of the tournament than it does towards the end. We have heard from several top players that Milliken cloth plays the same on the first day as it does at the end of the event.

I am personally convinced that Milliken is a better cloth than Simonis and Championship. I have NO EXPERTISE to back up my personal opinion. But since I work for the distributor of said brand I am willing to spend my own money to let the customer see if they also concur with my opinion.

Call it guerilla marketing if you will. Milliken is not going to go head to head with Simonis in the marketing of this cloth - in fact the pool table cloth business is only a tiny part of Milliken's business, they bought Strachan, which is the actual producer of the cloth.

So the only way to do this for me is to go customer by customer and installer by installer. Glen here is very much a Simonis guy and his word carries a lot of weight, you have a ton of experience and your word carries a lot of weight.

I happen to think that our cloth is better than the brands you and Glen reccomend. My experience level however is so far below yours that all I can do is offer ours up for direct comparison in the environment which it will be used.

It's not any different if someone comes on here and claims that x-brand cue case is "the best" when they have little to no experience with other brands. I say to them, prove it. Put you case up against mine and let the best one win.

I am that guy right now. My brand, Milliken Super Pro is the little known underdog and I am willing to put it in the box head to head in any way possible to win the vote of the billiard playing public.

If Simonis or Championship want to give away cuts to go head to head then bring them on. If we lose then we lose.

But I feel pretty good about our chances once people actually play on tables covered with Milliken Super Pro.

If you're that sure of the cloth your selling, I'll make you a deal. I'll install your MSP on a 9ft table side by side with Simonis 860HR on the next table. That way the cloth is installed by the same mechanic, and very professionally done. Then we can sit back and wait for time to answer all questions

PS. BUT...I want to do this test in a room that allready uses Championship 3030 on their tables as well.

DogsPlayingPool · Mar 22, 2010

JB Cases said:
...So let's stop the talk and walk the walk. I am willing to put my money where my mouth is and prove that Milliken is not only a fine alternative to Simonis but that it is in fact the superior one...

realkingcobra said:
If you're that sure of the cloth your selling, I'll make you a deal. I'll install your MSP on a 9ft table side by side with Simonis 860HR on the next table. That way the cloth is installed by the same mechanic, and very professionally done. Then we can sit back and wait for time to answer all questions

PS. BUT...I want to do this test in a room that allready uses Championship 3030 on their tables as well.

So it's on I guess. Please keep us posted on this. I for one will be very interested in the results. The test should be completed right around the time I'm needing my table recovered.

realkingcobra · Mar 22, 2010

DogsPlayingPool said:
So it's on I guess. Please keep us posted on this. I for one will be very interested in the results. The test should be completed right around the time I'm needing my table recovered.

My offer hasn't been accepted as of yet

Glen

PS. I've use MSP in the past, so this isn't my first turn at the cloth.

realkingcobra · Mar 22, 2010

In FACT...

I'll make that challenge to ANY manufacture of a worsted woolen cloth, so that also included Championship 3030 and Granito as well...but the challenge is to either the manufacture...or exclusive distributor of such cloths

.......any takers????

Glen

Mikjary · Mar 22, 2010

I'll do it! Glen, please bring a second table to my house and recover them.
I promise to play on them equally and sacrifice my precious time for this test.:yes:

realkingcobra · Mar 22, 2010

Mikjary said:
I'll do it! Glen, please bring a second table to my house and recover them.
I promise to play on them equally and sacrifice my precious time for this test.:yes:

Yeah...you and about 9 million others would love to be "willing" test subjects for this one I'm sure

Dartman · Mar 22, 2010

realkingcobra said:
I'll make that challenge to ANY manufacture of a worsted woolen cloth, so that also included Championship 3030 and Granito as well...but the challenge is to either the manufacture...or exclusive distributor of such cloths.......any takers????

Glen

If you do then you need to make it blind so preconceived opinions are ruled out. Simple - trim off any edge markings so the brand will only be know by the installer. And somehow there needs to be a guarantee of equal play - otherwise it's a waste of time with worthless results.

realkingcobra · Mar 22, 2010

Dartman said:
If you do then you need to make it blind so preconceived opinions are ruled out. Simple - trim off any edge markings so the brand will only be know by the installer. And somehow there needs to be a guarantee of equal play - otherwise it's a waste of time with worthless results.

Rick, the way I see it, is if the tables are side by side, the table that gets the most play....has the prefered cloth on it

and the hours of play will show that.

Glen

JB Cases · Mar 23, 2010

realkingcobra said:
If you're that sure of the cloth your selling, I'll make you a deal. I'll install your MSP on a 9ft table side by side with Simonis 860HR on the next table. That way the cloth is installed by the same mechanic, and very professionally done. Then we can sit back and wait for time to answer all questions

PS. BUT...I want to do this test in a room that allready uses Championship 3030 on their tables as well.

That's fine with me - I am sure though that no matter how you do it that there will be variables that skew the results in different directions. Even if no one knows which tables have which cloth things like location play a part in what tables are preferred and as such get more play.

Also many players don't really care or know how to play well enough to be attuned to the cloth.

But if you have a way to do a fair test I will send you a cut of the cloth and you can send us your results. I hear that you are honest and if Milliken does well with the players you will tell us all that.

I'd be interested to know how you plan to set this up since I hear you are on the road most of the year. How do you plan to track the wear of the cloth and the player's opinions of it?

Such real-world use comparisons can only serve to help the consumer and the room owner better decide where to put their money when considering new cloth.

After four years of carrying Milliken Super Pro - or MSP as you like to abbreviate it, I am totally confident that it's as good as I say it is. And since Simonis raised their prices and we didn't, now it costs less too.

So even if it were just as good it's still a better value, but when it plays better (subjective) costs less (fact) and lasts longer (fact) then Milliken Super Pro is an unbeatable value.

So lay it out for us and if the test you propose is something that's transparent with verifiable data then I am all in.

JB Cases · Mar 23, 2010

Dartman said:
I'm sure you know I've never knocked MSP. We can dismiss ball marks since they are a standard result of playing on worsted cloth. Some think that ball marks constitute wear and this is not the case. Here's 2 pictures (MSP and Simonis) and you can clearly see the ball marking on both - http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=2061937&postcount=7

Lab tests can be skewed so the only true test of better durability and playability is to blind compare side by side in a real world environment with an equal amount of play with players of comparable ability.

I wasn't saying that you knocked Milliken Super Pro. I am just offering it up as an alternative to Simonis and whatever other brands people are bringing up.

I just believe in it. That's really all there is to it. I am pretty ignorant of thread counts and nylon content and coatings and whatever other technical things go into making cloth.

I just play on it and have my own opinion based on how the balls roll.

Simonis plays great, Championship plays great and Milliken Super Pro plays great.

In my life I have beat up Simonis and Championship during my jump cue exhibitions. I have also subjected the Milliken Super Pro to the same torture with the result being that the MSP looked better and was easier to clean (remove ball marks) at the end of the event.

Here is the rest of the thread that you quoted for those interested in an ongoing real world side by side test. The two pictures in the post don't show the cloths at the same angle and distance so it's impossible to make any kind of comparison of the two brands using those two pictures.

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?p=2061937#post2061937

Again I am making the statement though that I know very little about cloth and my comments as to how the cloth "plays" and feels are my own opinion unless otherwise indicated.

Milliken has done lab tests to compare the cloths, they had to in order to insure that their product is comparable on measurable levels. They have done the side by side comparisons in pool halls in England for many years.

They are not willing to release the data obtained in the testing. I have some of it but I am under a non-disclosure agreement. So at this point I just have to say to all consumers reading this....try it, if you don't agree that it's as good or better than Simonis, lasts longer, and costs less then I will refund your money. That's about as simple as I can say it.

If I end up refunding a lot of people then I will stop recommending the cloth. I am pretty sure though that this won't happen. MSP is gaining market share no matter what.

JB Cases · Mar 23, 2010

realkingcobra said:
Rick, the way I see it, is if the tables are side by side, the table that gets the most play....has the prefered cloth on it and the hours of play will show that.

Glen

In that case there are already several high traffic pool rooms around the country which have one or two tables with Milliken installed and those rooms report that the tables with Milliken get more play and are requested more often by the higher level players.

These are rooms which agreed a year ago to test out the Milliken against the Simonis for the purpose of evaluating it's fitness because they are looking for an alternative to Simonis.

For obvious competitive reasons I am not going to name names on this forum - I don't want these rooms getting called with "special deals" on Simonis as has happened a few times when the room owner had already decided on covering all the tables in Milliken Super Pro. And when I say special deals I mean that the room owner was offered prices below wholesale cost to prevent Milliken from getting on the tables.

To me that is a pretty good indication that Milliken is considered to be a serious contender. Although it could also be that Simonis would have done the same no matter which cloth was in contention to replace Simonis.

Fatboy · Mar 23, 2010

DogsPlayingPool said:
This may be a question for Dr. Dave but it occurs to me that if one cloth grabs the cue ball better after impact with the OB and therefore it takes the draw more quickly, then wouldn't that same cloth also take the back-spin off the cue ball quicker on its way to the OB? The CB would then therefore have less backspin at the moment of impact, resulting in less draw, or at least canceling out to some extent the advantage gained after impact?

Fatboy: What cloth do you use these days? Thanks.

Simonis, for the last time.:grin-square: I will explaine with a good post later when I have time. I'm not a hyprocrate.

realkingcobra · Mar 23, 2010

Fatboy said:
Simonis, for the last time.:grin-square: I will explaine with a good post later when I have time. I'm not a hyprocrate.

So, do you have another cloth in mind?...or are you going for that new slate look?

Glen

realkingcobra · Mar 23, 2010

Fatboy said:
Simonis, for the last time.:grin-square: I will explaine with a good post later when I have time. I'm not a hyprocrate.

By the way, you're up early

DogsPlayingPool · Mar 23, 2010

Fatboy said:
Simonis, for the last time.:grin-square: I will explaine with a good post later when I have time. I'm not a hyprocrate.

Gosh, I hope you don't think I was calling you that or inferring anything. I was just asking because you have some considerable experience with different cloths on both GC's and Diamonds etc., snooker cloth etc. So I'm genuinely interested in what you have to say on the subject. :thumbup:

As you know I only recently got my GC4 so the only cloth I'm getting to know is the 860HR that I put on and even then it's only been a matter of a few months.

smoooothstroke · Mar 23, 2010

yes

DogsPlayingPool said:
This may be a question for Dr. Dave but it occurs to me that if one cloth grabs the cue ball better after impact with the OB and therefore it takes the draw more quickly, then wouldn't that same cloth also take the back-spin off the cue ball quicker on its way to the OB? The CB would then therefore have less backspin at the moment of impact, resulting in less draw, or at least canceling out to some extent the advantage gained after impact?

Fatboy: What cloth do you use these days? Thanks.

Exactly right.Cloth that "grabs" the CB would be slow cloth.

realkingcobra · Mar 23, 2010

smoooothstroke said:
Exactly right.Cloth that "grabs" the CB would be slow cloth.

That's not true

There's a difference between distance roll and slow speed. Cloth that don't let the cue ball spin very much, is a much more consistent cloth to play on, because it does help take some of that slippery spin out of the cue ball, and transfer it to "roll" in which then the "speed" of the cloth takes over.

For example: On Championship Titan cloth(woven wool) you can masse the cue ball much easier, draw the cue, shoot jump shots, follow...all easier with a good stroke, BUT...after the effects of the english on the cue ball wears off....that's when the speed of the cloth take over, and on this kind of cloth...the cue ball slows down noticeably, whereas on Simonis...it has a much smoother roll to the cue ball, resulting in more distance with the cue ball, with the same stroke of the shot.

Glen

Look, if someone came out with a cloth that would last on a table for 10 years, but didn't play right, how long it lasts means nothing to me....because for 10 years....that's a table I won't be playing on!

realkingcobra · Mar 23, 2010

And I'm NOT knocking the Championship Titan cloth what-so-ever, I think it's the best non-worsted pool cloth on the market today, and have used 1,000's of yards of it in the past on bar tables

Glen

PS, further more, if I EVER install any other cloth on a pool table besides a worsted wool cloth, then I only use the Championship Titan...and that's it!

Nature Boy · Mar 23, 2010

realkingcobra said:
And I'm NOT knocking the Championship Titan cloth what-so-ever, I think it's the best non-worsted pool cloth on the market today, and have used 1,000's of yards of it in the past on bar tables

Glen

PS, further more, if I EVER install any other cloth on a pool table besides a worsted wool cloth, then I only use the Championship Titan...and that's it!

Why would you not put a worsted cloth on a bar box?

If not Simonis, what next?

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