Brandon Shuff on Bonus Ball

"Improvised synopsis of the L.O.L."

real bartram said:

Lol
That's why the pros play bonus ball sets for action all the time

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.....well the L.O.L. says a lot about the Money transfer in the pool world!
You'd have to be one of the chosen players though to really "not see" that Bonus Ball is a war against POOL!
Greg Sullivan had a plan for the Bigfoot Ten Ball that would have included an event that finished in Atlantic City and was proposed to be televised, however, the road to that vision was required (by the Harrah's corp.) to travel through Tunica and prove it's worth$$$$.
Bonus Ball got in the way (the war on pool) by not allowing top players presence and Tunica is forever lost and the result maybe "Bone-us-ball" is what we'll be left with???
Short sighted pro pool players (play Bone-us-Ball) for the cash?

Roger Long said:

As I was chatting with Steve Strain (Bonus Ball play-by-play announcer) after last night's match, Brandon Shuff came up and congratulated Steve on the great job he and the production crew are doing, and then proceeded to express his excitement over the news that ESPN3 is showing an interest in Bonus Ball.

So I took the opportunity to inform Brandon that some of us have held the opinion that the Bonus Ball players may only be expressing support for the game because they are receiving paychecks from the WPBL. You should have seen and heard the reaction I got! I don't recall all of his exact words, but Brandon made it perfectly clear that he and every other Bonus Ball player thinks it's the best game ever devised.

Roger

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That comment has such a ring of untruth it makes it impossible to take anything said after that seriously.

Perhaps we'll be graced with another picture of checks that don't get sent.

Comcast could give this group pointers on PR.

boogeyman said:

Fast Lenny: I love your support for Bonus Ball. It's in line with my own angle on the game.
Just not sure why you think BB does NOT do well on its own.
Having 8, 9, & 10 ball as part of the events would only serve to complicate matters.

The arena, scoreboard, colors, and everything else was built to speak to BB, and only BB.
In order to make and sell a product it has to be "dedicated" and the brand has to be as clear as possible.
Larry and company did just that with Bonus Ball.

Granted it takes time to learn the game, but heck, once learned, BB is a product that can't be "confused" with any other in the world.
Way to go guys, you will get there eventually and all the naysayers with simply go quiet!

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The scoreboard and arena could still be used just fine with the other games and I do hope during the off season that there is WPBL tournament or team events featuring traditional games too all played in a team format or even a round robin. I just personally think acceptance from the diehards would have been easier using some traditional games along with Bonus Ball in this team format. The true test really is acceptance from the general public which are the numbers needed to make it all work but that takes time. If you look at how the NFL, NBA and MLB all started out then you would see how these sports evolved into what they are today.

I am a forum member first and really want to see the pros make a living in pocket billiards regardless of the game played and honestly feel Bonus Ball is a great game showcasing the players all around ability. I think it has a chance to make it, maybe when all the footage is in the can and they tally all the world wide numbers that have viewed it online and on TV then it has potential to attract a big sponsor which will fund it. Getting a sponsor for 2-3 million a year is not impractical at all if you can show them big viewership numbers. What sponsors are looking for is CPM which is cost per mille, if they can reach say 1000 people for about $30 that is pretty decent. The question really is can Bonus Ball reach say 50 million people worldwide, that is a great deal of people but I bet Asia has more than that who watch pocket billiards on TV annually.

Zbotiman said:

.....well the L.O.L. says a lot about the Money transfer in the pool world!
You'd have to be one of the chosen players though to really "not see" that Bonus Ball is a war against POOL!
Greg Sullivan had a plan for the Bigfoot Ten Ball that would have included an event that finished in Atlantic City and was proposed to be televised, however, the road to that vision was required (by the Harrah's corp.) to travel through Tunica and prove it's worth$$$$.
Bonus Ball got in the way (the war on pool) by not allowing top players presence and Tunica is forever lost and the result maybe "Bone-us-ball" is what we'll be left with???
Short sighted pro pool players (play Bone-us-Ball) for the cash?

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Sorry if you actually believe the Bonus Ball players were not at Tunica but they were there for the Ultimate 10 Ball. The fans were the ones who did not show up to support the event which are what it is all about financially for Greg Sullivan and Harrahs. Did you go and support it?

In attendance?

Fast Lenny said:

Sorry if you actually believe the Bonus Ball players were not at Tunica but they were there for the Ultimate 10 Ball. The fans were the ones who did not show up to support the event which are what it is all about financially for Greg Sullivan and Harrahs. Did you go and support it?

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Yeah, I was there, and at the Open when Larry preached in the bar every night before B.B. began in earnest (after postponing) again and again. The fans are always the issue and the reason this sport of pocket billiards needs to solidify on a pro presence for T.V.. You really think B.B. is going to go over with a public that can barely comprehend 8-ball as stripes and solids??????????????????????????
P.S. What Mark Wilson is a part of at Lindenwood University may eventually be the best solution to the eventuality of pool's future!

Roger Long said:

I am starting to wake up, Dick, but not in the way you suspect.

I'm here in Vegas right now, and what I'm seeing from all of the players at the Bonus Ball studio ranges from quiet (but intense) interest to all-out excitement. To me. it doesn't matter if the players' interest is10% love of the game and 90% love of the paycheck, or if it's 90% love of the game and 10% love of the paycheck, or if it's any ratio in between, all I know is that none of them are here solely because they are being paid to do so.

Rodney Morris posted on Facebook a few days ago that all of the Bonus Ball players have lost money on the game since the league started. His point was that they would not keep coming back to play Bonus Ball in Vegas if they were doing so only for the money.

Also, there have been three teams eliminated since the playoffs began on Wednesday, and all the players from those three teams are still here. I'm assuming that's because they are interested in seeing who wins the whole thing. I can't recall the last time, if ever, I have seen players stick around after being eliminated from a tournament.

To fully understand what I'm talking about, Dick, you'd really need to be here to witness it for yourself.

Roger

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Pretty much everyone posting in this thread has watched Bonus Ball. It is, indeed, an interesting game, but I haven't heard any viewer not affiliated with the game in any way suggest is the best game played on the glorious green felt.

For the sake of those who play it, I hope your suggestion that you have to be there to truly appreciate how exciting the game is proves false, as the WPBL business model is certainly not built around live attendance.

Players don't stick around sweating the matches after being eliminated? You've never seen it in your life? Sounds like you weren't at the Derby, where it's quite common.

Please, while we'd all like to see Bonus Ball succeed and provide some recurring income to pros badly in need of it, we aren't as clueless as you seem to think we are.

And, once again, the level of player interest is not a measure of the game's vitality.

SJDinPHX said:

Leonard, you know I luv ya like a brother..and it pains me to see you so disillusioned about Bonus Ball !..As SJM and I, and MANY others have said, had they played almost ANY other game but BB, they may have gotten enough support to survive !..I hate to sound like a knocker, but the combination of HORRIBLE, amateurish, business decisions, and Ciborak's ego driven insistence to force HIS game on us, almost guaranteed failure !

You know I love "moving games" and there were some good concepts (arena, city teams, etc.) but they had NO chance of succeeding in its chosen, confusing format !..I would lay you ten cases of YJ, to one bottle, that Bonus Ball will not be around by 2015 !..ESPN 3, is not HBO you know, and it sounds like Ciborak and his investors, are putting up most of the money to get it on the air at all !..I will be surprised, (actually astonished) if its used for more than "dead air time" filler.. It sounds like even Roger Long, is starting to wake up !

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Fast Lenny said:

As I stated bud I do believe doing Bonus Ball as a game standing on its own was not the way to go and a mix of games with the teams would be excellent. I think people would be more accepting and get slowly introduced to Bonus Ball coupled with say 8 and 9 or 10 ball as part of the matches.

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I agree with both of you in ways. I watched some free BB and liked it ok as I got familiar with the rules. I especially liked it when Scott was sort of managing his team and telling everybody what to do and not to do. It could never compete with one pocket to me, but that's just me. I thought it would have been good and could have helped BB a lot that time when J J wanted Earl to go out and have a fist fight. If Earl would have went out and they really had a sure nuff knock down drag out fight, with one of them getting black eyes and the other getting a broke nose or something and it got national exposure and been recorded and put on you tube, then that would have been exciting, and maybe have gotten national attention, but Earl chickened out, so, better luck next time...

Roger Long said:

Now I'm wondering, how many here in this discussion (except for myself and Lenny) have bothered to check out the WPBL and Bonus Ball in person before forming their opinions on them?

Roger

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Roger, I'm not trying to be combative. You've seen what you've seen and you like what you see. That's cool. I'm just trying to get you to see this from the vantage point of me and other fans.

As for how many have seen a Bonus Ball match live, I can think of at least one of us who planned to see a scheduled WPBL match in March, when I knew I'd be going to Vegas with some friends .... but the match never happened. Once again, I knew I'd be in Vegas for eleven days in July for the BCAPL event at the Rio, and I hoped to attend a Bonus Ball match, but there wasn't a single match in the eleven days I was in town. Then, I went to the Mosconi Cup and would have loved to go to a WPBL match as the play concluded in the afternoon every day and the fourth day of competition didn't happen at all, but there wasn't one. Face it, Roger, the WPBL hasn't made it easy for anybody not living in or near Las Vegas to attend a match live. The problem for me and others has been that the announced schedule for the WPBL has, typically, been meaningless.

Not enough fans in the arena? The WPBL has itself to blame, and those of us who would have liked to attend a match had the deck stacked against us time after time.

So, on behalf of those not living in or near Las Vegas who post on here but have never attended a match, I'll say "did we ever really have a chance?" Please don't dismiss our opinions because we weren't there.

Roger, put down the pipe, let it cool off.

That's right, step away - from - the - pipe.







JK'g

My friend made me play Bonus Ball and it is definitely for more advanced players. It's definitely somewhat like One Pocket. A strategic and fun to play game. That is what Roger is saying. He is not bragging about Chiborak or the rest of the WPBL nightmare. He's not saying that the WPBL has been a financial success or well run. He's just saying the game is good. It is his opinion. The pros obviously see the merit in a game that is obviously way tougher to play than the traditional games.

Lenny has played all games and it is no secret he is buddies with Frost and likes One Pocket, He works for The WPBL and of course if something puts bread on your table and you like the game, you are going to defend it! Seems like the game is easy to defend but the league has been a joke since day one. A nightmare since day one. Poor management by Chiborak from the building problems, his business partner refusing to lie about the lack of funding, the league structure and Nathan's failure to produce and deliver "live streaming" ! Let's not forget the marketing failure of this business concept. This really what irked Azbiliard pool players. Nathan saying they were not their target market was as dumb as it comes.

Roger, most agree now, the game is ok and maybe even some love it! The pros are playing it and they play it well. They play it for some cash but Chiborak failed to come up with any real funds for them. It is a fact that most players have lost money trying to get this league going. I doubt this league can ever make it. This is just a pipe dream of Chiborak with no sound finacial business plan! It has to wind down after the playoffs. One game playoffs with all the teams playing should tell you something. This gong show is about to close it's doors.

I just have one thing to say. Whatever Brandon likes, I like. Go, Brandon Shuff, go. Wishing you much success in all your pool endeavors.

Did anyone see last night's match or were all of the longtime TAR fans here watching the end of an era?

Last nights bonusball action was great though. Unfortunately Philly came up short and Brandons season has ended but it was a great match between Philly and Vegas that came down to the last game to determine the victor and who will move on. Congrats to Schmidt, Eberle, & Charlie for advancing and good luck.

Put me down on the list of people who love the game. Both the game and the action. These playoffs are intense.

Celtic said:

I think you answered your own question there.

A large part of the issue I have with the game is some of the BS "marketing" that goes on with the game, such as that very statement

"every other Bonus Ball player thinks it's the best game ever devised"

Even if some pro said that we all know it is a BS statement that wreaks of mass hyperbole. Do the supporters and promoters of Bonus Ball think people are really going to read that and believe it is a true statement that comes from the heart? Do they actually believe it themselves? Seriously?

It is one thing to say the game is good, to ask people to give it a chance, but the ridiculousness of the way it is presented as the next coming of Christ is freaking absurd and turns people off more often then not.

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Your right, but do you really think they are marketing or targeting ONLY pool players or just AZ forum members??????????? we already know about the makeup of this group and there spending and self serving broke/dick attitudes. TAR is one example, and BB is still there for now. Many business failures taught the next risk takers to reboot the failed business model, often times thats what it finally took to make it successful. Many Many business models failed only to fail again and again, till someone realized the most important and NON important factors involved, then the PUBLIC and investors finally saw it's value.

Rooting for a City/Town or state, is allot more appealing and excited than watching safety play of two pros on TV when you know ZIP about either. I'd prefer to see the BCA Nationals become different. I'd like to see each state create ONE top eight ball team. From there create the Nationals with 52 states X players for the National or World Championship. We could also invite ONE team from Each country around the Planet for the Nationals, that would be waaaaaaaaaaaaay cool. And the team that wins the State championships or Country championship, have FREE. room board and transportation. The dollars for this team could be extracted from all the prior play and qualifying events. I'd love to see TX play Thailand or the Bahamas for the National/World 8 Ball team Championships.

It was 10 years ago, in the IPT. KT REQUIRED the players to sit in the stands, even after they were eliminated, in order to get paid. Personally, that was just one of several good ideas he had (dressing up, and making themselves available to the fans, were a couple of others). I don't happen to agree that the pros in Vegas would be playing BB if they weren't getting paid...but that's jmo.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Roger Long said:

. I can't recall the last time, if ever, I have seen players stick around after being eliminated from a tournament.

Roger

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I'm looking forward to the matches today too.

Scott Frosts team vs. Johnny's in the playoffs is going to be sick. Plus I am rooting for Rodney, Mika, & Raj to win it all so I will be logging in to see that one as well.

Going to be a great day here.

Roger Long said:

Stu,

You're right, I have not been to the Derby, which disqualifies me from making any sort of judgmental statement concerning it.

But this is my third visit to the Bonus Ball venue, where I have had the opportunity to meet and hold conversations with the owners, the investors, the production crew, and many of the players, so any information I pass along here comes from first-hand knowledge.

Now I'm wondering, how many here in this discussion (except for myself and Lenny) have bothered to check out the WPBL and Bonus Ball in person before forming their opinions on them?

Roger

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I was at the Derby; more on that later. First, some thoughts on TAR and Bonus Ball and being a Fan! Oh my!

I am saddened to see the demise of TAR; I've enjoyed many of their match ups. It might be of note that there was a time, when BB was going through a difficult start up and under fire from many on this forum and TAR was held up as the example of the proper way to create matches and market them to the "real fans” who would flock to the stream to watch. I believe that this "real fan”, did support TAR. However, the “real fan” base, the self described real pool fan, was not large enough to sustain the business model of TAR in the long term.

I think that the BB people realized from the beginning that the fan base of knowledgeable pool loving fanatics that congregate on these forums and attend the tournaments was not large enough to sustain any business model and they needed to expand that base over the long term. Instead of applauding their efforts to expand this base (they have still not accomplished this but I give them full marks for trying) some of the “real fans”, professing love for the game, felt they were not being courted with the respect they deserved and turned against them.

Those with an open mind would recognize that BB provides a level of excitement that some other games do not. The outcome of many formats, especially the rotation games, is often apparent after the break. Not so with BB. It is easy to follow with just a small effort to learn the rules. I think it interesting that the BB people seem to be attempting to start a league system. I have felt that the current league systems that show a commitment to promoting the professional player have not been able to mobilize their hundreds of thousands of members as fans of the pro game in any meaningful way. Maybe BB can do that; it won’t be easy, if possible at all.

I was at the Derby. It is a quality tournament all the way. The prize funds are meaningful and the payment to the participants goes deep. Diamond builds the best tables so outcome is determined by play. If there is a better event within an event than the Bigfoot challenge I have yet to see it. As an added bonus, I became a fan of one pocket (it took seeing it live, played by the best, to fully appreciate it).

That said, I think that the fan turnout was near capacity for the venue. That would leave the Accustats stream to expand the fan base and reach more fans. I think that they did. I would be surprised if the subscription numbers, fueled by the Bigfoot Challenge being prominent and up front, were not up significantly. Just from the number of my friends from league play that do not usually subscribe to PPV that noticed my wife and I in the audience and messaged me would seem to indicate this. Unfortunately, the remaining schedule for the stream (that followed the Bigfoot Stream) was haphazard and did nothing to maintain the momentum for PPV that the Bigfoot Challenge did. I hope that Accustats learns from this and will be more seamless with match presentations in the future.

One final point, another suggestion to Accustats, lower your prices for DVD of matches that you have recorded. I come from the CD and DVD business. The cost to manufacture and package this product should be in the $0.67 to $0.82 range. With a suitable royalty to the participants (I assume the players get a royalty from these sales) these could be marketed to league players as a means of expanding the consumer/fan base for future events at a much more reasonable retail (I suggest less that $10.00) with a wholesale cost that would allow the league operator a profit.

Oh, and I do hope to be able to check out BB live on my next visit to Las Vegas. I think it will change my opinion somewhat. Currently, I like to watch it. Think it is presented well, streams well, is exciting to watch; showcases skill and has drama. That said I will probably feel even more strongly that the interaction between the players should be more prominent after seeing it live.

(((Satori))) said:

I'm looking forward to the matches today too.

Scott Frosts team vs. Johnny's in the playoffs is going to be sick. Plus I am rooting for Rodney, Mika, & Raj to win it all so I will be logging in to see that one as well.

Going to be a great day here.

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To say that last match was sick is an understatement. That was incredible.