how does timing the stroke make you feel your stance??
Timing in pool
- Thread starter Kdogster
- Start date
I think Nick Varner talked about timing as being important in his break stroke.
The Mark Wilson video that bb9ball referenced is excellent. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XW2hg3FTu4
I just watched it and he goes through the entire shot process. He mentions that a pro typically spends 1.4 to 1.8 secs from when they begin backswing to starting forward stroke. So that time includes the final backswing and the pause at backswing He also said amateurs tend to be much faster. The other thing I picked up was the pause prior to beginning the backswing to confirm you like it one last time. However, this timing is probably different than what commentators are describing.
As Bob and others mentioned, timing could be referring to the forward stroke time as it relates to accelerating the cue. For the forward stroke, the word timing is interesting because I have always heard to maintain constant acceleration and vary the backswing length to change the speed on impact. For soft shots, use shorter backswing and for hard shots, take a longer backswing. You may even lengthen the bridge length to get more room for longer backswing. So timing seems like a function of backswing if you accelerate evenly.
I just watched it and he goes through the entire shot process. He mentions that a pro typically spends 1.4 to 1.8 secs from when they begin backswing to starting forward stroke. So that time includes the final backswing and the pause at backswing He also said amateurs tend to be much faster. The other thing I picked up was the pause prior to beginning the backswing to confirm you like it one last time. However, this timing is probably different than what commentators are describing.
As Bob and others mentioned, timing could be referring to the forward stroke time as it relates to accelerating the cue. For the forward stroke, the word timing is interesting because I have always heard to maintain constant acceleration and vary the backswing length to change the speed on impact. For soft shots, use shorter backswing and for hard shots, take a longer backswing. You may even lengthen the bridge length to get more room for longer backswing. So timing seems like a function of backswing if you accelerate evenly.
To me timing is hitting your exact cueball target with the tip - an area about the size of a BB - at your exact intended angle and speed. This is very hard to do consistently and is why pool is a very difficult game.
Lets say I have my perfect grip (for me) and at setup my tip is about 1/8 - 1/4" away from my CB target, see pic #1. And lets say I make a perfectly straight final stroke and my tip hits the CB target right on the nose, see pic #2. There's not much difference in these two grip pictures. Contact grip position (pic #2) is the 1/8 - 1/4" more forward and, as you can see, is more in the palm of my hand now (pictures taken at slightly different angles, sorry). When I flush a shot with a perfect hit and speed, my hand is in this position every time, no matter the shot....slow, fast, difficult, easy, etc.
If I make contact with the CB with my grip at pic #1 position, I usually miss or miss position on the next shot. Same if I'm in pic #2 position before CB contact.
There is a feeling you have when your timing is perfect, when your hitting the CB exactly where you intended, at the perfect speed and angle. Pay attention the next time you're in stroke and you'll notice that the grip hand is almost always in the same position at contact when this is happening (just past your setup grip position). Get to know this feeling (in your grip hand), and learn how to repeat it, and you will play much better. Biggest obstacle to this is finding a grip that allows the stick to come through in a straight line, without steering......another discussion for another time.
This works better with lighter grip pressures. The trick is getting from the back of the backswing (see pic #3) to that perfect hit position (grip position). With lighter grip pressures the hand has a better chance of just naturally folding back or collapsing to where is was at setup and then release to the hit position. Golf is essentially the same, knowing when to release the cocked wrist so that the club head squares up to the ball at contact (flushes it).
#1
#2
#3
Lets say I have my perfect grip (for me) and at setup my tip is about 1/8 - 1/4" away from my CB target, see pic #1. And lets say I make a perfectly straight final stroke and my tip hits the CB target right on the nose, see pic #2. There's not much difference in these two grip pictures. Contact grip position (pic #2) is the 1/8 - 1/4" more forward and, as you can see, is more in the palm of my hand now (pictures taken at slightly different angles, sorry). When I flush a shot with a perfect hit and speed, my hand is in this position every time, no matter the shot....slow, fast, difficult, easy, etc.
If I make contact with the CB with my grip at pic #1 position, I usually miss or miss position on the next shot. Same if I'm in pic #2 position before CB contact.
There is a feeling you have when your timing is perfect, when your hitting the CB exactly where you intended, at the perfect speed and angle. Pay attention the next time you're in stroke and you'll notice that the grip hand is almost always in the same position at contact when this is happening (just past your setup grip position). Get to know this feeling (in your grip hand), and learn how to repeat it, and you will play much better. Biggest obstacle to this is finding a grip that allows the stick to come through in a straight line, without steering......another discussion for another time.
This works better with lighter grip pressures. The trick is getting from the back of the backswing (see pic #3) to that perfect hit position (grip position). With lighter grip pressures the hand has a better chance of just naturally folding back or collapsing to where is was at setup and then release to the hit position. Golf is essentially the same, knowing when to release the cocked wrist so that the club head squares up to the ball at contact (flushes it).
#1
#2#3
Last edited:
That’s good food for thought. There are a few things that require timing. The wrist release to get the right hit is a timing thing. I normally don’t think about the feel in the grip hand, but I will check it out. Thanks for the excellent description to go with the pics! Point well taken.
I was doing some soft, extreme English shots just now and was noticing how I needed to have a soft jab stroke to make the cue ball take the English. If you don’t do a jab stroke, the English gets lost. This requires some timing as well.
Good post O'SulliReyes!
Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
Quote:
Originally Posted by O'SulliReyes View Post
The stroke tempo is, in my opinion, of the most essential components of a good cue action. The best players usually, if not always, have a unique stroke rhythm which they execute at a certain speed or tempo. Everyone has an ideal stroke tempo--deviate from this tempo and you would most likely miss the pot.
Look at Efren Reyes or Ronnie O'Sullivan for instance. Their practice strokes have a unique 'choreography' and are always at a certain tempo. Efren's practice strokes looks as if he's "playing the violin" according to Billy Incardona, while Ronnie's looks like that of "a top darts player setting up for the throw", according to Steve Davis.
Even though their practice strokes may vary slightly depending on the shot, the tempo of the feathering is always the same. A player who is "in the zone" is a player who has managed to synchronize his eye pattern with his grip action, stroke rhythm and tempo, enabling him to hit the cue ball "sweetly", which translates to being able to get a lot of reaction from the cue ball with minimal effort.
Not surprisingly, Efren and Ronnie are two of the best players when it comes to cueing through the ball, which means a greater variety of shots available to them. Just look at Ronnie and his effortless deep screw shots, and Efren's extreme English shots.
__________________
PBIA Master Instructor
Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
Quote:
Originally Posted by O'SulliReyes View Post
The stroke tempo is, in my opinion, of the most essential components of a good cue action. The best players usually, if not always, have a unique stroke rhythm which they execute at a certain speed or tempo. Everyone has an ideal stroke tempo--deviate from this tempo and you would most likely miss the pot.
Look at Efren Reyes or Ronnie O'Sullivan for instance. Their practice strokes have a unique 'choreography' and are always at a certain tempo. Efren's practice strokes looks as if he's "playing the violin" according to Billy Incardona, while Ronnie's looks like that of "a top darts player setting up for the throw", according to Steve Davis.
Even though their practice strokes may vary slightly depending on the shot, the tempo of the feathering is always the same. A player who is "in the zone" is a player who has managed to synchronize his eye pattern with his grip action, stroke rhythm and tempo, enabling him to hit the cue ball "sweetly", which translates to being able to get a lot of reaction from the cue ball with minimal effort.
Not surprisingly, Efren and Ronnie are two of the best players when it comes to cueing through the ball, which means a greater variety of shots available to them. Just look at Ronnie and his effortless deep screw shots, and Efren's extreme English shots.
__________________
PBIA Master Instructor
Good luck if you don’t think about it when you’re learning.Good luck if you're trying to think about all this when you're playing.
pj
chgo
I think that maintaining a constant acceleration (which is the same as maintaining a constant forward force), is unnatural. If you were to plot the speed/time profile of the cue stick, it would be a straight line of increasing speed. The profiles I've seen (one of them is on Dr. Dave's site) are more like a gradual build-up of force and then no force at impact.
I think that most players who learn to play well pick up an efficient timing naturally, by which I mean they make the cue ball do what they want with minimum effort. I think that means hitting the ball at peak speed which in turn means zero acceleration and forward force at impact. (One way to say that is, "Let the cue stick do the work.") Hitting a ball like that just feels better.
But as others have said, you better not be thinking about any of this stuff when you play.
Thanks for pointing out that constant acceleration is not desirable. I was trying to describe a way of not being too herkyjerky with the stroke, but a "gradual build-up of force" is spot on.
Focusing on the "timing" as it relates to the forward stroke, I think how you deliver the cue to get a desired amount of force on impact is the timing aspect. You can use length of backswing and different amounts of punch into the shot to get the job done. However the player gets the desired results in a consistent way is the right answer for how to use the variables. Changing the amount of punch goes against the gradual build-up of force style of stroking, but I see it has some use cases.
This has been a good thread on timing. It has a wide range of interpretation. I can appreciate there are many things that require timing. Now, I also have a bunch more to practice in the lab. Thanks all! :thumbup:
Many of these posts about the tip of the cue and the body placement and golf and all the other myriad of ideas make no sense to me as far as timing is concerned.
They all seem like aim.
They all seem like aim.
Last edited:
I've always thought of timing as the smoothness of your acceleration through the cue ball. If you closely watch some players with 'short' strokes (Pangulayan, Schmidt,...) you can see how they time the acceleration to get the most out of the tiny moment the tip is on the ball.
I like using the QMD3 stroke trainer (cue-md.com) to check up on my stroke, the velocity chart from the software will show you if you're accelerating and how much.
I like using the QMD3 stroke trainer (cue-md.com) to check up on my stroke, the velocity chart from the software will show you if you're accelerating and how much.
Attachments
Ditto on the below and add:
Cue Ball Control is learned from the bottom (slowest speeds) up to the harder strokes. First you must be able to feel and control the small speeds then as you fundamentals increase in strength you'll be able to control more stroke.
Preparing your final stroke for the speed you're going to give it is all of the elements of stroke and timing.
Learning One Pocket is the best way to achieve this without thinking a lot about it.
Cue Ball Control is learned from the bottom (slowest speeds) up to the harder strokes. First you must be able to feel and control the small speeds then as you fundamentals increase in strength you'll be able to control more stroke.
Preparing your final stroke for the speed you're going to give it is all of the elements of stroke and timing.
Learning One Pocket is the best way to achieve this without thinking a lot about it.
Mark Wilson on Timing
Hey there,
from what i heard from Mark Wilson in all the years as soon he s using the term "Timing" he (in my opinion, and how i remember it ) is using this term extremly often if it s about the smooth transition from backwards to forward motion.
To have here a perfect timing ( this is my own opinion) seperates the winners and the loosers.
just my 2 cts.
Hey there,
from what i heard from Mark Wilson in all the years as soon he s using the term "Timing" he (in my opinion, and how i remember it
) is using this term extremly often if it s about the smooth transition from backwards to forward motion. To have here a perfect timing ( this is my own opinion) seperates the winners and the loosers.
just my 2 cts.
Frank Tullos
This is the only known video of Frank Tullos who recently passed away. He had a unique kind of warm up strokes
and stroke delivery and a extremely consistent delivery with excellent cue ball control. One of the local One Pocket monsters.
I got to play with Frank and watch his setup and stroke routine over the years. Great player at any game. Watch it for his timing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnBQ2CeBh9c
This is the only known video of Frank Tullos who recently passed away. He had a unique kind of warm up strokes
and stroke delivery and a extremely consistent delivery with excellent cue ball control. One of the local One Pocket monsters.
I got to play with Frank and watch his setup and stroke routine over the years. Great player at any game. Watch it for his timing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnBQ2CeBh9c
Barry Stark posted a video on timing. He used a 35000 fps camera to show that timing exists.
https://youtu.be/zH2PHaGl8Ik
Barry defines it as maintaining tip to surface contact longer at impact. Many pros describe it as more of a push. My sense of timing with soft draw fits that description. On certain shots with follow I use a similar stroke which has a feel of grabbing or holding contact. Ronnie O’Sullivan and Stephen Lee call the feel “bite on the ball”. One of the ways to maintain longer contact is through a downward angled stroke.
To those out there that think you can’t feel a 200 microsecond difference in contact time, Stark’s research proves it. The shooter was asked to tell when he felt the longer contact. When compared to shots where it was missing they found that extended contact on film. Scientists have discovered that the fingertips on a human hand can differentiate thickness changes of one molecule. The tips have pressure and shape sensing abilities. Vibratory feedback distinguishes between the moment of initial contact and recognizes a longer gripping time on the surface.
In Ronnie O’Sullivan’s recent WSC win, he talked several times about the timing of his stroke. He took extra practice time pre-session to work on finding the penetrating feel of the stroke through the ball, timing.
Ronnie and Stephen both speak about maintaining the same pace on most stroke. They both speak about a timed squeeze through the ball and that height of contact and the timing of the squeeze are what give them cue ball pace control on most shots. This is a different level of timing. Squeezing can slow the cue incrementally. Timed right the shooter now knows subconsciously when to push through fully to compensate for the retarding of power. Longer contact actually translates to more actual contact follow through. That means more rotational force on off center contacts. It also lessens deflection. The driving force of the extended contact keeps it on line longer. It’s like the timed spin of pitchers, tennis players and bowlers.
On a normal contact of tip to ball, the tip decelerates from meeting resistance. Conversely, a cue executing a push type of action, drives the tip and ball forward, without a rebound effect.
To get a sense of the feel shoot over a ball. Put the cue ball a full ball away from the intervening ball. Feel the resistance of the table due to the downward angle of the cue. That is extended contact. Increase the angle slightly and hit off center to get a swerve effect. The longer contact swerves more than the lower resistance of a horizontal contact with the same off center contact point and pace.
I've always heard that the soft flesh of the hand gives enough on contact, even with a tight grip, to essentially "decouple" the hand/arm from the collision forces - meaning there's no way to "push through" the cue ball and increase contact time.
pj
chgo