'Sharp' full splice points

jkmarshall_cues

jkmarshall_cues

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There might be another somewhere...


John



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return points

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fugdbdt

AzB Silver Member
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LGSM3 said:
So basically Scott spends tons of time, headaches and money and you think he should hand over the magic recipe?

Who is the Davis your referring too?
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Thanx for your response.
 
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Chopdoc

Chopdoc

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No disrespect meant to the wonderful cue makers, but where are the sharp bottom points?

I posted the Whisler cues as an example because they are the only ones I know that are razor sharp at the bottom. I have seen a lot of responses about other cues/makers with sharp bottom points but the pics I have seen don't actually have them. They are blunt.

The point s above labeled "return points" are a wonderful example of an up close picture of such a thing. They are not sharp, they are blunt. If I showed you full splice top points like that you would call it a failure and the cue maker would look bad.

So....bottom just as sharp as top. Who besides Whisler does it?
 
cueaddicts

cueaddicts

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Chopdoc said:
No disrespect meant to the wonderful cue makers, but where are the sharp bottom points?

I posted the Whisler cues as an example because they are the only ones I know that are razor sharp at the bottom. I have seen a lot of responses about other cues/makers with sharp bottom points but the pics I have seen don't actually have them. They are blunt.

The point s above labeled "return points" are a wonderful example of an up close picture of such a thing. They are not sharp, they are blunt. If I showed you full splice top points like that you would call it a failure and the cue maker would look bad.

So....bottom just as sharp as top. Who besides Whisler does it?
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Blackcreek....don't believe all of Travis' have been done this way, but some definitely have. Search is your friend....here are a few:

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=230130

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2009-Blackc...-Pool-Billiards-Cue-2-Shafts-NR-/330628042462
 
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Daithi

Registered
I'm not a cue maker, but I'm interested in how this done. Blackcreek definitely knows the secret, as does Whistler. Here is a Whistler full-splice

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are the veneers thicker than usual? If so, could that be clue?
 
macguy

macguy

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fugdbdt said:
My bad! Thought this was ASK THE CUEMAKER for a minute there.
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I am a little confused, I just read over your postings and you have asked everything from dying glues to spindle speeds and have politely received a lot of valuable information. Now the first time you don't get what you want you become all offended. Do you have some illusion people on here owe you something? What information that is shared here is done as a courtesy not an obligation and I for one really appreciate it, I have learned a lot. Yes, some things may even be considered trade secrets, you need to respect that. Insulting the same people who have willingly helped you won't gain you anything. You do realize all capital letter represents yelling? I am at a bit of a loss with you attitude. You can only hope you don't get ignored now in the future.
 
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ChampionsRepair

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Chopdoc said:
No disrespect meant to the wonderful cue makers, but where are the sharp bottom points?
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There aren't going to be many full splice builders who offer sharp point returns. I will just touch on a few of the reasons here.

The most significant reason is return on investment. If a builder is going to offer them, they will need additional dedicated machinery where the jigs and fixtures that allow for the construction will occupy the equipment making it useless for other tasks. Without the dedicated machinery they will spend countless hours setting up testing, cutting, and retesting the fit to get the quality result that customers demand. Only to tear it back down until it is needed again and the process starts again. Time and material waste for this process or the amortized cost of the additional square footage and machinery would need to be passed on to the customer making the cue much more expensive.

Secondly, customers want longer points these days. The longer the point the smaller the angle at the return. This requires more labor and makes the job of hand knifing in the return significantly more difficult. And those same customers want veneers. A single re-cut doubles the labor for creating the splice and doubles the material waste. Traditional veneers require more dedicated machinery or setup time. Either way the price is going up again.

So if you, and a couple hundred other qualified buyers open up your wallets and dig a lot deeper you will see the sharp returns on full splice cues that you are asking for. Until then, saw blade kerf width returns really aren't that bad.
 
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cueman

cueman

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I do not have this perfected yet, but here is how I would do it. To get the forearm sharp on the bottom I would cut the forearm blank grooves out with the radial arm saw. Then I would cut the handle prongs with the band saw. This would leave about a 1/16 wide flat at the bottom. Then I would get one of the Japanese saws that come to a sharp point with the real course teeth and touch up the bottom to a sharp point. Then the veneers would be milled angled on the back ends so they could come to a point.
 
Chopdoc

Chopdoc

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Jim Baxter said:
Hi Here is some of Dmitrys sharp points . Full splice , with recut . Jim

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I was actually just wondering if anybody did points that are sharp on one end and butterflies on the other. I guess the pic answered my question! Very nice.
 
Chopdoc

Chopdoc

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Silver Member
ChampionsRepair said:
There aren't going to be many full splice builders who offer sharp point returns. I will just touch on a few of the reasons here.

The most significant reason is return on investment. If a builder is going to offer them, they will need additional dedicated machinery where the jigs and fixtures that allow for the construction will occupy the equipment making it useless for other tasks. Without the dedicated machinery they will spend countless hours setting up testing, cutting, and retesting the fit to get the quality result that customers demand. Only to tear it back down until it is needed again and the process starts again. Time and material waste for this process or the amortized cost of the additional square footage and machinery would need to be passed on to the customer making the cue much more expensive.

Secondly, customers want longer points these days. The longer the point the smaller the angle at the return. This requires more labor and makes the job of hand knifing in the return significantly more difficult. And those same customers want veneers. A single re-cut doubles the labor for creating the splice and doubles the material waste. Traditional veneers require more dedicated machinery or setup time. Either way the price is going up again.

So if you, and a couple hundred other qualified buyers open up your wallets and dig a lot deeper you will see the sharp returns on full splice cues that you are asking for. Until then, saw blade kerf width returns really aren't that bad.
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I understood all of that very well, but thank you anyway. The point was not why don't more do it, but who does actually do it.

I am also curious about how it is done. There is likely more than one way to skin that cat. It is a curiosity, an interest, nothing more. Not looking for anybody's secrets. I am betting that some do it "better" than others as well. So I am interested in comparing and contrasting.

Personally, I think it's an example of excellence in cue making. More difficult, more time consuming, more expensive? Yes. But there are many cues featured in these forums that go WAY beyond this mere feature as far as complexity and expense.
 
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pdcue

AzB Silver Member
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fugdbdt said:
my bad! Thought this was ask the cuemaker for a minute there.
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rhncue

AzB Silver Member
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Chopdoc said:
I understood all of that very well, but thank you anyway. The point was not why don't more do it, but who does actually do it.

I am also curious about how it is done. There is likely more than one way to skin that cat. It is a curiosity, an interest, nothing more. Not looking for anybody's secrets. I am betting that some do it "better" than others as well. So I am interested in comparing and contrasting.

Personally, I think it's an example of excellence in cue making. More difficult, more time consuming, more expensive? Yes. But there are many cues featured in these forums that go WAY beyond this mere feature as far as complexity and expense.
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How do you know that if you don't know how it is done. You seem to be saying in one sentence that this technique is simple and you want to understand how it is done but don't want to know any deep dark secrets. If it was so simple don't you think there would be more than 3 or 4 people, out of the thousands of builders, who know how to do it? The reason that more don't do them is because the technique is a deep dark secret. If you believe it is so simple why don't you explain to us how it is accomplished. I would also like to know and I've been building cues for 20 years.

Dick
 
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fugdbdt

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
macguy said:
I am a little confused, I just read over your postings and you have asked everything from dying glues to spindle speeds and have politely received a lot of valuable information. Now the first time you don't get what you want you become all offended. Do you have some illusion people on here owe you something? What information that is shared here is done as a courtesy not an obligation and I for one really appreciate it, I have learned a lot. Yes, some things may even be considered trade secrets, you need to respect that. Insulting the same people who have willingly helped you won't gain you anything. You do realize all capital letter represents yelling? I am at a bit of a loss with you attitude. You can only hope you don't get ignored now in the future.
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You are right! After the first negative reply, i thought no one was reading the thread title. The thread sit for several days before anyone would touch it. I was totally surprised to see that the builder chimed in just to more or less say '' i know how but im not tellin. '' The way i took it was that he only felt like writing that short reply and that he really might not mind if someone asked at least what kind of saw he used. After seeing it again i understand he was simply offering an opinion. But after seeing my reply again, i can totally see how indignant and aggressive it could sound. We play kinda rough over here ... all in fun of course. But i understand that i was out of line and im appologizing.
No i definately appreciate any help from the builders. Ive been building since the mid 80s when the only info i could get was over the phone with Dan Prather or Deikman. I had enough machine shop experiance to get by. I am very greatful to the contributors. As the man said ... im on my own on this one. And in a strange way, not unlike some of the other difficult things you constantly run into, i kinda like it that way.
 
Chopdoc

Chopdoc

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rhncue said:
How do you know that if you don't know how it is done. You seem to be saying in one sentence that this technique is simple and you want to understand how it is done but don't want to know any deep dark secrets. If it was so simple don't you think there would be more than 3 or 4 people, out of the thousands of builders, who know how to do it? The reason that more don't do them is because the technique is a deep dark secret. If you believe it is so simple why don't you explain to us how it is accomplished. I would also like to know and I've been building cues for 20 years.

Dick
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I never said it was simple. I never said I "knew" anything about it. What I said was what I think and what I think is that it is actually something special, not common.

I tend to be an excellent writer, but I may be in a hurry here, the communication is casual, and I may fail to communicate well. If that is the case I am sorry. It is also possible you have misinterpreted my posts. In either case the result is that you seem to take offense.

Since you find it offensive to even talk about it I will drop it and never mention it again. It's apparent that the OP stirred some people up over it as well. I only jumped in because I find it fascinating and have so since I first saw Mr Whisler's cues several years ago. I was simply unaware of who else might be doing it.
 
cueman

cueman

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Someone asked why we don't see more of this done? Here is why in my opinion. It will take dedicated machinery and jigs to do this. The jigs are simple to use, but not simple to build. The look to me is not impressive enough to dedicate the shop space to the equipment and jigs it would take to do it time and time again. Now if a hundred people step up and say I will pay a $1000 per cue for you to build them this way with a few inlays thrown in to make each one a unique one of a kind cue then I would be working on the jigs this weekend, and cleaning out around my radial arm saw so I could actually use it.
You have seen what the Davis blanks cost, so the price needs to be up there. You can also see that the sharp bottom point cues don't really look impressive enough to fetch a grand per cue from most people. But unless they are bringing that kind of dollars and you are selling a lot of them, they are not worth the effort, dedicated shop space and machinery to most of us. I think the full splice rec-cuts without veneers as some posted would be a good bit easier to build, but still would require dedicated machinery even though you would have a couple of less jigs to build. We have hundreds of cuemakers who have the talent to build these, and if the market was strong for them most of us would be building them. But if the market stays weak for them and people want a cue like that for only a few hundred dollars then cuemakers will not feel motivated to build them.
 
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