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evergruven
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vertically-challenged, horizontally - 05-04-2020, 12:53 AM

in this thread https://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=511537
balance point was the topic, and here I'm still curious about that topic
but from a bit of a different perspective

in that thread hawaiian eye was kind enough to supply pictures of his cues
and with balance points of those cues marked
seeing his cues made me think

I've done the same thing here, with a measurement added
the green dots represent where I just picked up the cue, and placed my grip hand
I did this quickly and without looking, and tried to ignore individual cue specs.
the cues used all vary in length, weight, balance, etc.
while maybe not super-scientific, the results are all ended up being pretty close

I then marked each cues balance point with a pink dot
the more distance between the green and the pink,
the comfortable I feel with that cue

this experiment seems to confirm what I've suspected
that my ideal cue has a balance point weighted more forward than is typical

what I'm wondering now is
beyond technique, or preference for some other reason
how much of this is due to physiology?

I'm a short dude, with short arms
could it be that simple?

any other short players out there? y'all relate?

additionally I wonder
if a person had a shorter-than-average wingspan
besides for long shots
could more cue simply be wasted on them?
in another way
is it likely that a shorter player would be more comfortable with a shorter cue?

I've seen plenty talk about tall folks and their 60+ inch cues
could it work it the other way?

all input is of course welcome
shorties rep tho
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A billiard table is that richest of metaphors,
by turns a theatre, an altar, touchstone, gauntlet,
ritual ground, a gunfighter's high noon, a refuge,
a verdant landscape for balls to scatter and rest in meaningful synchronicity,
a classroom, a karma dance, mirror of moods, a guide and trusted friend...

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05-04-2020, 08:59 AM

Short as well...5’7”
I much prefer a forward weighted cue as well.

Balanced at my normal grip point is “ok” in front of my hand for the balance point, is always preferable to me...


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evergruven
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05-04-2020, 04:36 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by gogg View Post
Short as well...5’7”
I much prefer a forward weighted cue as well.

Balanced at my normal grip point is “ok” in front of my hand for the balance point, is always preferable to me...
hey gogg, thanks for the shout back
based on where where wraps tend to go
I seem to naturally grip more forward than most
you can kinda see it in the pic I posted
do you grip "ahead of the wrap" as well or ?

and do you have any thoughts about using a shorter cue?
thanks again


A billiard table is that richest of metaphors,
by turns a theatre, an altar, touchstone, gauntlet,
ritual ground, a gunfighter's high noon, a refuge,
a verdant landscape for balls to scatter and rest in meaningful synchronicity,
a classroom, a karma dance, mirror of moods, a guide and trusted friend...

-- from grissim's "billiards"
  
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05-05-2020, 05:55 AM

I'm 6'2" tall. I hold the cue close to the bottom on EVERY cue. Could not care less about balance point unless its really off.
  
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I think the answer is yes
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I think the answer is yes - 05-05-2020, 06:21 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by evergruven View Post
in this thread https://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=511537
balance point was the topic, and here I'm still curious about that topic
but from a bit of a different perspective

in that thread hawaiian eye was kind enough to supply pictures of his cues
and with balance points of those cues marked
seeing his cues made me think

I've done the same thing here, with a measurement added
the green dots represent where I just picked up the cue, and placed my grip hand
I did this quickly and without looking, and tried to ignore individual cue specs.
the cues used all vary in length, weight, balance, etc.
while maybe not super-scientific, the results are all ended up being pretty close

I then marked each cues balance point with a pink dot
the more distance between the green and the pink,
the comfortable I feel with that cue

this experiment seems to confirm what I've suspected
that my ideal cue has a balance point weighted more forward than is typical

what I'm wondering now is
beyond technique, or preference for some other reason
how much of this is due to physiology?

I'm a short dude, with short arms
could it be that simple?

any other short players out there? y'all relate?

additionally I wonder
if a person had a shorter-than-average wingspan
besides for long shots
could more cue simply be wasted on them?
in another way
is it likely that a shorter player would be more comfortable with a shorter cue?

I've seen plenty talk about tall folks and their 60+ inch cues
could it work it the other way?

all input is of course welcome
shorties rep tho

One of the great players of yesteryear played with a 56" cue, I think Willie Mosconi but I may be mistaken. The vast majority of the time the longer cue serves no purpose that another form of weight behind the grip hand wouldn't also. As I have mentioned before, my sixty inch cue has a balance point of 21" from the end of the butt not counting bumper. That is an identical balance point to the very common 19" balance point with a fifty-eight inch cue. Everyone notices my cue is light when they try it, few notice it is long until it is pointed out to them. The lightness is somewhat deceptive, it weighs just over sixteen ounces but with the taper of the wrapless butt and the balance point people generally think it is even lighter than it is.

A faster taper forearm and a wrap further forward would accomplish the same thing for you as a shorter cue and if you ever wanted to sell it, it would probably be easier to sell than a very short cue. I have long wanted to put a very long irish linen wrap on a cue for myself, from well up on the forearm to within an inch or two of the butt cap. I like a wrap but hate the feeling of two different textures under my hand and I tend to grip a cue well back. Irish linen wraps can be any length unlike the precut wraps of other things. A chamois wrap that I cut to fit would be another option. Too many projects in my head I will never find time to put into reality!

Hu
  
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05-05-2020, 08:31 AM

Balance point is a coefficient to nothing.
In all the years of dealing with cues every day, I have never sold a cue to a guy who
asked what the balance point is.
In fact I have never even had a response back after I've answered the question.
Balance point is basically a copout question asked by people who don't know how to
back out of a deal, or by guys at the pool hall when everybody is bored.
Balance point is the only question I won't answer,and is the only reason I will stop responding to a buyer.

Balance point isn't easy to measure by yourself.
I could see someone sending back a cue because the balance point is off a half inch, how odd would that be.


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05-05-2020, 08:49 AM

My grip is also farther forward than tall guys. But that is partly so I can try to incorporate the slip-stroke into my shot. (Not well done, or natural yet, but it is coming along)
No need for the slip, but I want to be able to use it...

The length hasn’t been a big deal, since the stuff that I have to reach for is hampered more by my wingspan than by the cue length ( or so it seems)


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05-05-2020, 01:34 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by garczar View Post
I'm 6'2" tall. I hold the cue close to the bottom on EVERY cue. Could not care less about balance point unless its really off.
interesting
here's another hypothesis:
the further back a player is able to hold their cue,
the less important balance point is to that player
..because their cue weight will always be forward of their grip hand
any thoughts?


A billiard table is that richest of metaphors,
by turns a theatre, an altar, touchstone, gauntlet,
ritual ground, a gunfighter's high noon, a refuge,
a verdant landscape for balls to scatter and rest in meaningful synchronicity,
a classroom, a karma dance, mirror of moods, a guide and trusted friend...

-- from grissim's "billiards"
  
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05-05-2020, 01:39 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by evergruven View Post
interesting
here's another hypothesis:
the further back a player is able to hold their cue,
the less important balance point is to that player
..because their cue weight will always be forward of their grip hand
any thoughts?
Could be. I rarely am on the grip. Usually on the butt-sleeve somewhere.
  
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05-05-2020, 01:52 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by cuesblues View Post
Balance point isn't easy to measure by yourself.
Piece o' cake. Extend your index finger and place the cue across it like a teeter totter. Start with your finger near the top of the wrap and move it back and forth until it balances. Takes 5-10 seconds.

pj
chgo
  
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05-05-2020, 02:20 PM

First, which balance point?

1. The point on the stick.
2. The fulcrum created by your hands.

But, both are affected by the stick weight.

Number 2 is as you think and is entirely dependent upon wing span. In cycling this is done for the legs with the seat and crank arms.

If you're looking for a factual answer, I believe in archery, swimming and even stunt diving this is determined frequently in an applicable way. But yes, it is dependent on a persons size.

Edit: Rowing!!! I looked up how to determine this fulcrum and rowing came up per definition, and this just so happens to be where I'm positive I've seen this determined, search in that.

Last edited by Cron; 05-05-2020 at 02:24 PM. Reason: rowing
  
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05-05-2020, 02:34 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShootingArts View Post
One of the great players of yesteryear played with a 56" cue, I think Willie Mosconi but I may be mistaken. The vast majority of the time the longer cue serves no purpose that another form of weight behind the grip hand wouldn't also. As I have mentioned before, my sixty inch cue has a balance point of 21" from the end of the butt not counting bumper. That is an identical balance point to the very common 19" balance point with a fifty-eight inch cue. Everyone notices my cue is light when they try it, few notice it is long until it is pointed out to them. The lightness is somewhat deceptive, it weighs just over sixteen ounces but with the taper of the wrapless butt and the balance point people generally think it is even lighter than it is.

A faster taper forearm and a wrap further forward would accomplish the same thing for you as a shorter cue and if you ever wanted to sell it, it would probably be easier to sell than a very short cue. I have long wanted to put a very long irish linen wrap on a cue for myself, from well up on the forearm to within an inch or two of the butt cap. I like a wrap but hate the feeling of two different textures under my hand and I tend to grip a cue well back. Irish linen wraps can be any length unlike the precut wraps of other things. A chamois wrap that I cut to fit would be another option. Too many projects in my head I will never find time to put into reality!

Hu
hey hu, thanks for chiming in
I have read (here, probably) that 57 was the standard cue length before 58 became cool
56 seems less of a "stretch" in that case, but nonetheless it'd be fun to know that willie liked a shortie
I looked his height up, and by most accounts I read he was 5'8" or shorter-
shorter cue to match his height, perhaps?

re: your cue
so when it comes to numbers, I'm often more "gee whiz" than "math whiz"
but these days, I'm measuring/comparing balance points
by dividing the length from the top of the ferrule down to the balance point into the total length of the cue
so, 39/58=67.24%
using the same method, yours would be 39/60=65%
or, a little more forward-balanced than the 39/58
there's probably a better way to describe the process/result, but I think the math is sound
I've never shared it tho..what do you think?

ps 16 oz. for a 60 oz. cue is wild, man...


A billiard table is that richest of metaphors,
by turns a theatre, an altar, touchstone, gauntlet,
ritual ground, a gunfighter's high noon, a refuge,
a verdant landscape for balls to scatter and rest in meaningful synchronicity,
a classroom, a karma dance, mirror of moods, a guide and trusted friend...

-- from grissim's "billiards"
  
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05-05-2020, 02:37 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by garczar View Post
Could be. I rarely am on the grip. Usually on the butt-sleeve somewhere.
right. man, if I had my hand that far back, I'd almost be bridging from the joint ^_^


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by turns a theatre, an altar, touchstone, gauntlet,
ritual ground, a gunfighter's high noon, a refuge,
a verdant landscape for balls to scatter and rest in meaningful synchronicity,
a classroom, a karma dance, mirror of moods, a guide and trusted friend...

-- from grissim's "billiards"
  
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05-05-2020, 02:45 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cron View Post
First, which balance point?

1. The point on the stick.
2. The fulcrum created by your hands.

But, both are affected by the stick weight.

Number 2 is as you think and is entirely dependent upon wing span. In cycling this is done for the legs with the seat and crank arms.

If you're looking for a factual answer, I believe in archery, swimming and even stunt diving this is determined frequently in an applicable way. But yes, it is dependent on a persons size.

Edit: Rowing!!! I looked up how to determine this fulcrum and rowing came up per definition, and this just so happens to be where I'm positive I've seen this determined, search in that.
interesting stuff, thanks
I'm honestly not sure how to respond
but by balance point, I definitely mean the point on the stick
measured this way:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
Piece o' cake. Extend your index finger and place the cue across it like a teeter totter. Start with your finger near the top of the wrap and move it back and forth until it balances. Takes 5-10 seconds.

pj
chgo


A billiard table is that richest of metaphors,
by turns a theatre, an altar, touchstone, gauntlet,
ritual ground, a gunfighter's high noon, a refuge,
a verdant landscape for balls to scatter and rest in meaningful synchronicity,
a classroom, a karma dance, mirror of moods, a guide and trusted friend...

-- from grissim's "billiards"
  
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05-05-2020, 02:51 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by gogg View Post
My grip is also farther forward than tall guys. But that is partly so I can try to incorporate the slip-stroke into my shot. (Not well done, or natural yet, but it is coming along)
No need for the slip, but I want to be able to use it...

The length hasn’t been a big deal, since the stuff that I have to reach for is hampered more by my wingspan than by the cue length ( or so it seems)
makes sense..thanks!
and good luck with the slip
got me wondering now what's good cue aspects conducive to that..


A billiard table is that richest of metaphors,
by turns a theatre, an altar, touchstone, gauntlet,
ritual ground, a gunfighter's high noon, a refuge,
a verdant landscape for balls to scatter and rest in meaningful synchronicity,
a classroom, a karma dance, mirror of moods, a guide and trusted friend...

-- from grissim's "billiards"
  
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