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evergruven
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05-05-2020, 03:01 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by cuesblues View Post
Balance point is a coefficient to nothing.
In all the years of dealing with cues every day, I have never sold a cue to a guy who
asked what the balance point is.
In fact I have never even had a response back after I've answered the question.
Balance point is basically a copout question asked by people who don't know how to
back out of a deal, or by guys at the pool hall when everybody is bored.
Balance point is the only question I won't answer,and is the only reason I will stop responding to a buyer.

Balance point isn't easy to measure by yourself.
I could see someone sending back a cue because the balance point is off a half inch, how odd would that be.
surprising and interesting
I'm still figuring it out, but I definitely like a cue a certain way
as time goes on, that might change some
but if I was going to buy a nice cue
I wouldn't want worry about cue dimensions
I would want to focus on the "hit" of it tho


A billiard table is that richest of metaphors,
by turns a theatre, an altar, touchstone, gauntlet,
ritual ground, a gunfighter's high noon, a refuge,
a verdant landscape for balls to scatter and rest in meaningful synchronicity,
a classroom, a karma dance, mirror of moods, a guide and trusted friend...

-- from grissim's "billiards"
  
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Old
  (#17)
cuesblues
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05-05-2020, 06:13 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by evergruven View Post
surprising and interesting
I'm still figuring it out, but I definitely like a cue a certain way
as time goes on, that might change some
but if I was going to buy a nice cue
I wouldn't want worry about cue dimensions
I would want to focus on the "hit" of it tho
We all have our favorite specifications and some cues are just inherently butt heavy or back-weighted.
You always hear people say a 16 ounce South West butt doesn't feel heavy, so they
obviously do a nice job of balancing a cue butt.
I have a 16 oz. South West butt right now, and it doesn't feel heavy at all.
I had 2 Herman Rambow cues that both butts weighed 15.55, one was rear weighted
and played like crap, and one was nicely balanced and played great.
The cue balance was obvious to me and the guy who bought the Rambows, we didn't have to check the balance point, the one cue played like crap.

With all the great playing cues out there, custom cuemakers known for playability, and so many well engineered production cues, carbon fiber, the options are mindboggling.
The actual balance point doesn't factor in with so many other important variables.


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HawaiianEye
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05-05-2020, 06:43 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by cuesblues View Post
The actual balance point doesn't factor in with so many other important variables.
Are you saying this as a cue maker, a cue trader, or a player?

Every cue maker who has ever made me a cue has talked about how they would control the balance.

Balance is one of the reasons they use different pins and joint materials.

When I buy a cue, I discuss every aspect of the cue. I have played long enough that I know what I prefer.


The Hustler

Such a man spends all his life playing every day for small stakes. Give him every morning the money that he may gain during the day, on condition that he does not play-you will make him unhappy. It will perhaps be said what he seeks is the amusement of play, not gain. Let him play then for nothing, he will lose interest and be wearied. ***Blaise Pascal***
  
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ideologist
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05-05-2020, 07:14 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by HawaiianEye View Post
I have played long enough that I know what I prefer.
And it is worthless to the next guy.

"Forward balanced" or "rear balanced" are about the best you can do, most cuemakers won't dive deeper than that


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Originally Posted by Bavafongoul View Post
This may sound smug on my part
  
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  (#20)
HawaiianEye
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05-05-2020, 07:53 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ideologist View Post
And it is worthless to the next guy.

"Forward balanced" or "rear balanced" are about the best you can do, most cuemakers won't dive deeper than that
I deal with cue makers who maybe dive a bit deeper than the ones you deal with.

Like I've said on here 1,000 times, I'm buying my cues to play with...not sell. With only a handful of exceptions, there is no "next guy" to get any of my cues.


The Hustler

Such a man spends all his life playing every day for small stakes. Give him every morning the money that he may gain during the day, on condition that he does not play-you will make him unhappy. It will perhaps be said what he seeks is the amusement of play, not gain. Let him play then for nothing, he will lose interest and be wearied. ***Blaise Pascal***
  
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  (#21)
cuesblues
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05-05-2020, 08:42 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by HawaiianEye View Post
Are you saying this as a cue maker, a cue trader, or a player?

Every cue maker who has ever made me a cue has talked about how they would control the balance.

Balance is one of the reasons they use different pins and joint materials.

When I buy a cue, I discuss every aspect of the cue. I have played long enough that I know what I prefer.
I'm saying that I understand how important the balance is, not to be confused with the
ridiculous "balance point" question.
As far as ordering a custom cue, I have to like the way the cuemaker does things,
balance is one, but I've never discussed the "balance point" with a cuemaker.
I've never sold a cue when balance point was discussed, and I've never sold a cue to someone who asked.
The balance point question only comes up maybe once a year unless I bring it up for
something to talk about when adding or reducing weight bolts.


player...Paul Mottey, John Showman, Larry Vigus
player...Barry Szamboti, South West, Runde Schon
player...A-E, Lomax, Phillippi, Kenny Murrell
player...Harvey Martin, Terry McFadden, Jacoby
player...Bob Owen, Paul Drexler, Woodworth
player...Dave Jones, Predator, Loveland Customs
breaker.Judd Fuller
jumper..Jacoby Jumper
shooter..Sig Sauer P226 357
cutter.....Spyderco Massad Ayoob
  
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  (#22)
HawaiianEye
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05-05-2020, 08:53 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by cuesblues View Post
As far as ordering a custom cue, I have to like the way the cuemaker does things,
balance is one, but I've never discussed the "balance point" with a cuemaker.
I've never sold a cue when balance point was discussed, and I've never sold a cue to someone who asked.
The balance point question only comes up maybe once a year unless I bring it up for
something to talk about when adding or reducing weight bolts.
If a person has never had any experience with a particular cue maker's cues, how would they know "the way the cue maker does things" unless they asked?

I know Bob Meucci prefers to make all his cues butt heavy and there is even a video on his site (or was) that explains his reasoning why. https://youtu.be/NmK9e0BxWkY?t=104

Taiwanese pros prefer their cues to be butt heavy, rather than forward weighted. (I got this from Timothy Soong on here who is Taiwanese and has a billiards supply business there.)

FWIW, I prefer cues with no weight bolts if I can get the cue weight and balance the way I want it just from the selection of woods and the way it is constructed.


The Hustler

Such a man spends all his life playing every day for small stakes. Give him every morning the money that he may gain during the day, on condition that he does not play-you will make him unhappy. It will perhaps be said what he seeks is the amusement of play, not gain. Let him play then for nothing, he will lose interest and be wearied. ***Blaise Pascal***

Last edited by HawaiianEye; 05-05-2020 at 09:17 PM.
  
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jrctherake
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05-05-2020, 11:14 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by evergruven View Post
in this thread https://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=511537
balance point was the topic, and here I'm still curious about that topic
but from a bit of a different perspective

in that thread hawaiian eye was kind enough to supply pictures of his cues
and with balance points of those cues marked
seeing his cues made me think

I've done the same thing here, with a measurement added
the green dots represent where I just picked up the cue, and placed my grip hand
I did this quickly and without looking, and tried to ignore individual cue specs.
the cues used all vary in length, weight, balance, etc.
while maybe not super-scientific, the results are all ended up being pretty close

I then marked each cues balance point with a pink dot
the more distance between the green and the pink,
the comfortable I feel with that cue

this experiment seems to confirm what I've suspected
that my ideal cue has a balance point weighted more forward than is typical

what I'm wondering now is
beyond technique, or preference for some other reason
how much of this is due to physiology?

I'm a short dude, with short arms
could it be that simple?

any other short players out there? y'all relate?

additionally I wonder
if a person had a shorter-than-average wingspan
besides for long shots
could more cue simply be wasted on them?
in another way
is it likely that a shorter player would be more comfortable with a shorter cue?

I've seen plenty talk about tall folks and their 60+ inch cues
could it work it the other way?

all input is of course welcome
shorties rep tho
I replied in your first thread about balance point.

As I said in the other thread, for very little money any competent cue guy can modify the cues balance point without changing total cue weight.

To move balance point forward = remove pin, epoxy a small weight bolt in nose, install new pin then take weight from rear of butt to match weight added in nose.

BTW, don't fall victim to anyone saying that putting a small weight bolt in nose area ruining the hit/feel of ANY cue....it will not matter in the least.

Be safe and have a good day sir.

Jeff


I knew a fellow that thought he was a good boxer because he was in a position to befriend a lot of "professional boxers". It cost him azzwhippens till he realized he wasn't what he thought/wished he was.

Do you know anyone like the "wannabe" boxer in the pool world?
  
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evergruven
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05-06-2020, 02:02 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by jrctherake View Post
I replied in your first thread about balance point.

As I said in the other thread, for very little money any competent cue guy can modify the cues balance point without changing total cue weight.

To move balance point forward = remove pin, epoxy a small weight bolt in nose, install new pin then take weight from rear of butt to match weight added in nose.

BTW, don't fall victim to anyone saying that putting a small weight bolt in nose area ruining the hit/feel of ANY cue....it will not matter in the least.

Be safe and have a good day sir.

Jeff
hey jeff!
good to hear from you, and thanks for the shout
the cue I'm working with at the moment has got a wood pin
not sure how movable that one is
but armed (literally) with the knowledge
that moving weight forward is in the first place conceivable
I'm certainly curious to speak with a cue person (aka someone competent) bout it
things the way they are, it might be a minute before I get to do that
but in the meanwhile this forum remains a sweet refuge, and great place to learn,
especially from wise and kind players such as yourself!
thanks again, and goodest wishes to you pal


A billiard table is that richest of metaphors,
by turns a theatre, an altar, touchstone, gauntlet,
ritual ground, a gunfighter's high noon, a refuge,
a verdant landscape for balls to scatter and rest in meaningful synchronicity,
a classroom, a karma dance, mirror of moods, a guide and trusted friend...

-- from grissim's "billiards"
  
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jrctherake
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05-06-2020, 02:30 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by evergruven View Post
hey jeff!
good to hear from you, and thanks for the shout
the cue I'm working with at the moment has got a wood pin
not sure how movable that one is
but armed (literally) with the knowledge
that moving weight forward is in the first place conceivable
I'm certainly curious to speak with a cue person (aka someone competent) bout it
things the way they are, it might be a minute before I get to do that
but in the meanwhile this forum remains a sweet refuge, and great place to learn,
especially from wise and kind players such as yourself!
thanks again, and goodest wishes to you pal
Your MORE than welcome.

I learned a long time ago that sinking money into custom pool cues was not the smartest of decisions.

On the other hand, I found that a lower to mid-level production cue can be bought and modified to be all we need/want in a playing cue.

Talk to you soon sir.

Jeff


I knew a fellow that thought he was a good boxer because he was in a position to befriend a lot of "professional boxers". It cost him azzwhippens till he realized he wasn't what he thought/wished he was.

Do you know anyone like the "wannabe" boxer in the pool world?
  
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05-06-2020, 05:26 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by evergruven View Post
surprising and interesting
I'm still figuring it out, but I definitely like a cue a certain way
as time goes on, that might change some
but if I was going to buy a nice cue
I wouldn't want worry about cue dimensions
I would want to focus on the "hit" of it tho
Do know that if you consider your question as having both hands on the stick, this isn't a dumb question at all... at all !

The main problem is that for people with longer wingspans, they need extensions and those add a lot of weight. What I'm finding is that if you have a longer wingspan, you actually want the stick shorter than 58" (~55 or 56") and want the extension to be made of a very lightweight material. I use 3D printing to overcome this as that allows much finer control over the balance EXCLUSIVELY. The balance is literally 100% of the reason I 3D print extensions... nothing else!

I believe that every time a taller person adds a production extension by a major brand they immediately love the extra length, but they are also concious of all that add weight. Even Predator's 12" carbon fiber extension is ridiculously heavy when all you want is length and not weight.
  
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cuesblues
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05-06-2020, 07:17 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by HawaiianEye View Post
If a person has never had any experience with a particular cue maker's cues, how would they know "the way the cue maker does things" unless they asked?

I know Bob Meucci prefers to make all his cues butt heavy and there is even a video on his site (or was) that explains his reasoning why. https://youtu.be/NmK9e0BxWkY?t=104

Taiwanese pros prefer their cues to be butt heavy, rather than forward weighted. (I got this from Timothy Soong on here who is Taiwanese and has a billiards supply business there.)

FWIW, I prefer cues with no weight bolts if I can get the cue weight and balance the way I want it just from the selection of woods and the way it is constructed.

Some of the big collectors are a world of knowledge about cuemakers who are up
and coming, or cuemakers you might not think about on your own.
For instance I remember 15-years ago Fatboy told me about Sugartree.
Everyday I see guys looking for certain cues they must have played with or someone
recommended it..."Looking for a Joe Balonio cue, must have a leather wrap"
Someone played with a Balonio and had to has to have one
I'm always impressed when guys with no experience do their own research and come
up with a top notch cuemaker.


player...Paul Mottey, John Showman, Larry Vigus
player...Barry Szamboti, South West, Runde Schon
player...A-E, Lomax, Phillippi, Kenny Murrell
player...Harvey Martin, Terry McFadden, Jacoby
player...Bob Owen, Paul Drexler, Woodworth
player...Dave Jones, Predator, Loveland Customs
breaker.Judd Fuller
jumper..Jacoby Jumper
shooter..Sig Sauer P226 357
cutter.....Spyderco Massad Ayoob
  
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