Correcting "wrong eye dominance" possible?

ShootingArts

Smorg is giving St Peter the 7!
Gold Member
Silver Member
Same boat, sorta

I am right eye dominant, but fairly weakly right eye dominant. If you can close either eye at will you can work on eye dominance anywhere, not just on a pool table. Shooting a pistol in competition I wanted my dominant eye stronger to see my sights better. Something as simple as holding a pencil straight up and down at arms length and close one eye then trying to keep the focus in one eye can strengthen the dominance of either eye or the effectiveness of processing what you see from that eye.

A few years after starting shooting pistol competition I started shooting benchrest rifle. Damn, now instead of wanting to be strongly one eye dominant, I wanted my weak eye that was watching windflags while my right eye was focused through the scope to deliver more information than it was using a pistol. Same exercise, other eye.

At one time I could look past that pencil to the wall behind it and make the pencil jump back and forth as I swapped eye dominance just by my desire to use one eye or the other.

Weak dominance is a risk for pool players. Years ago I got down on a dirt simple shot I have shot a thousand times or so. This was the money ball. Cue ball less than a half table from the corner, the object ball about halfway along this line just a bit off straight in. We normally go down and tap these shots in without a thought. I couldn't see the line! I came up and got down three times, couldn't see the line. I finally decided this was stupid, aimed center ball and then moved over a bit figuring that with the margin for error the ball had to fall. It didn't!

The odd thing is I was watching a major tournament a few months later. In separate matches both Efren and Bustamonte missed exactly this same seeming "tap in" shot on the money ball. I would bet either one to be better than 99 out of 100 on this shot, strange that they both missed.

Two theories about why this happened. One, the eyes swap dominance on this slightly off angle shot without us realizing it. The other is something our brains compensate for and we don't realize. We have a blind spot in each eye where the optic nerve attaches. There is a simple thing I am sure you can find on the internet, look at a certain location with one eye closed and a spot on the page disappears. Move your eye a little and the spot is seen again. If our contact point is in this area we see it with monocular vision while we see most shots with binocular vision. I don't know which is the true cause of difficulties with this shot sometimes, perhaps either, perhaps neither.

Eye dominance can be tricky and I believe it is better to be either eye strongly dominant than to have weak dominance even if it matches the hand you shoot with. My experience indicates that you can definitely alter eye dominance, maybe to the point of swapping eye dominance. Is this altered perception 100% consistent? I don't know. I'm pretty sure some of us swap eye dominance depending on if we are cutting a ball left or right.

Just some food for thought. I think the "truth" depends a lot on the individual so one person's truth may not be another person's truth.

Hu
 

jrctherake

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Yeah.. I have Alexy Lely and Ingo Peter with a few hours of me..I do think I will reach out.

That being said.. I think I am going to go to the same optometrist and say "give me the same treatment" as the other pool player, and give it a shot. It might be as simple as a stronger contact prescription that sharpens everything in the 6-15 foot range, and that, along with plenty of cardio and practice, will be enough.

I don't believe there is an easy fix regardless of which you go.

Either way, good luck and keep us informed as to what you do and the outcome.

Happy trails sir, because you are about to begin a rather tough and long journey. Then again, to reach a higher level than one is at, it usually takes just that......a lot of work.

Good luck,

Jeff
 

DecentShot

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Add the following to cross dominant players

Buddy Hall
Jayson Shaw
Mark Selby
Neil Robertson
Cisero Murphy
Alex Pagulayan
Freddie Agnir

The list goes on and on.

So is the tell tale sign that they have their chin under the cue properly, but the head is tilted? To me it looks like bad mechanics, but I guess its an alternative posture. I believe Shaun Wilkie shoots this way? Some of the old timers look like they are positioned more for a Putt. I don't know how anybody shoots with a "look around the corner" alignment.
 
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ShortBusRuss

Short Bus Russ - C Player
Silver Member
I am right eye dominant, but fairly weakly right eye dominant. If you can close either eye at will you can work on eye dominance anywhere, not just on a pool table. Shooting a pistol in competition I wanted my dominant eye stronger to see my sights better. Something as simple as holding a pencil straight up and down at arms length and close one eye then trying to keep the focus in one eye can strengthen the dominance of either eye or the effectiveness of processing what you see from that eye.

A few years after starting shooting pistol competition I started shooting benchrest rifle. Damn, now instead of wanting to be strongly one eye dominant, I wanted my weak eye that was watching windflags while my right eye was focused through the scope to deliver more information than it was using a pistol. Same exercise, other eye.

At one time I could look past that pencil to the wall behind it and make the pencil jump back and forth as I swapped eye dominance just by my desire to use one eye or the other.

Weak dominance is a risk for pool players. Years ago I got down on a dirt simple shot I have shot a thousand times or so. This was the money ball. Cue ball less than a half table from the corner, the object ball about halfway along this line just a bit off straight in. We normally go down and tap these shots in without a thought. I couldn't see the line! I came up and got down three times, couldn't see the line. I finally decided this was stupid, aimed center ball and then moved over a bit figuring that with the margin for error the ball had to fall. It didn't!

The odd thing is I was watching a major tournament a few months later. In separate matches both Efren and Bustamonte missed exactly this same seeming "tap in" shot on the money ball. I would bet either one to be better than 99 out of 100 on this shot, strange that they both missed.

Two theories about why this happened. One, the eyes swap dominance on this slightly off angle shot without us realizing it. The other is something our brains compensate for and we don't realize. We have a blind spot in each eye where the optic nerve attaches. There is a simple thing I am sure you can find on the internet, look at a certain location with one eye closed and a spot on the page disappears. Move your eye a little and the spot is seen again. If our contact point is in this area we see it with monocular vision while we see most shots with binocular vision. I don't know which is the true cause of difficulties with this shot sometimes, perhaps either, perhaps neither.

Eye dominance can be tricky and I believe it is better to be either eye strongly dominant than to have weak dominance even if it matches the hand you shoot with. My experience indicates that you can definitely alter eye dominance, maybe to the point of swapping eye dominance. Is this altered perception 100% consistent? I don't know. I'm pretty sure some of us swap eye dominance depending on if we are cutting a ball left or right.

Just some food for thought. I think the "truth" depends a lot on the individual so one person's truth may not be another person's truth.

Hu

Yassssssss! This was the sort of technical info I was looking for!!

So, Hu.. Would you say that if I notice myself "swapping eyes" for no particular reason, and I feel my eyesight is equal in both eyes (corrected by contacts), that I am "weak dominant" in my left eye?

Would wearing an eyepatch daily over the left eye help with this?

Sorry to everyone else, but I was actually hoping you in particular would answer this question, Hu, as I know you have actual experience playing both high level pool and shooting firearms. To hear that you have actual experience swapping eye dominance actually gives me some hope.
 

ShootingArts

Smorg is giving St Peter the 7!
Gold Member
Silver Member
vision is tricky

Yassssssss! This was the sort of technical info I was looking for!!

So, Hu.. Would you say that if I notice myself "swapping eyes" for no particular reason, and I feel my eyesight is equal in both eyes (corrected by contacts), that I am "weak dominant" in my left eye?

Would wearing an eyepatch daily over the left eye help with this?

Sorry to everyone else, but I was actually hoping you in particular would answer this question, Hu, as I know you have actual experience playing both high level pool and shooting firearms. To hear that you have actual experience swapping eye dominance actually gives me some hope.



Russ,

Hard to say, impossible really, to tell which of your eyes is dominant from where I am at. Blocking the vision of one eye at a time while holding the pencil up and seeing which causes the pencil to jump the furthest establishes the dominant eye at the moment. Repeating the test over and over for a few days will tell you which eye is dominant and give some idea of how strongly it is dominant. You can put any kind of a small target on the wall or just look at something small already hanging there to make this easier.

You can get a decent quality pair of safety glasses, they are still cheap, and put some cheap cellophane clear tape over the lens of the eye you don't want to be dominant. This is better than totally blinding that eye. Your brain doesn't decide that you are blind in one eye, just vision impaired so it will rely on the other eye more. So I was told anyway. Used to be real common to see people with clear tape over one lens at shooting matches. Cheap tape works better for this than better quality stuff like Scotch brand. One layer is usually all that is used and you only tape over the part of the lens you look through.

I know very little about vision, what I have read and my own experience but I have never had to delve deeper in it than to strengthen dominance in one eye or the other. I never completely swapped dominance long term although it would seem like you could.

I didn't explain the pencil exercise well in my first post. You close one eye and then try to hold dominance with the other one when you open that eye. Because of blurring it might be better to just block the view of that eye with a piece of paper or a playing card. Sometimes the pencil seemed to move slightly when I could see out of both eyes even with holding eye dominance. It is a big jump when you swap dominance though, you can't miss it! I could swap dominance for a short time in controlled conditions, I never tried to swap for a long time like shooting pool for hours. I just made the pencil jump back and forth and hold for maybe a minute. I played with the pencil off and on at home many times a day and in my office at work too. A lot of sessions, short duration, never over ten minutes or so. You probably will feel a lot of eye strain at first if you do this so even a few minutes is fine to start with.

My visits to AZB and particular threads can be spotty so always feel free to also ask me a question in a PM or call my attention to a thread if you think I might have worthwhile input.

Hu
 

Imac007

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
So.. I am left eye dominant, and I play right-handed. I am pretty sure this is severely effecting my game, as I often struggle to know whether I am "on line" when shots get out past about 6 feet, and even if I make these balls, I often hit them slightly too thick or thin.

I never really payed much attention to this aspect of my game, but thinking back, it might be the main reason for inconsistent results.. When I am playing a lot, I naturally correct in whatever way, whether it be tilting my head, or simply I start subconsciously using my right eye, (or both eyes) as both eyes corrected with contacts, I'd say both eyes are of about equal strength.

I did a quick search, and people have mentioned that cross dominance can possibly be corrected by wearing a patch to force use of the nondominant eye at all times. Some people automatically revert to the dominant eye as soon as the patch is removed. Also, wearing an occluded contact in the currently dominant eye has been mentioned.

I'd really like to correct this issue, and I am simply not coordinated enough to switch hands. All this came about because a relative neophyte pool player friend of mine here in Germany mentioned going to an optometrist who happened to be a pool player, who gave him a new contact lense prescription that somehow corrected his cross dominance.

I do realize everyone is different anatomically, and he might have just gotten lucky, but, considering that both my eyes are equally strong, it seems I might have other options.

Any opinions/experiences?

I’m right handed and left eye dominant. In addition after two operations by five years of age my eyes work independently. 3D images are a composite image, eyes working cooperatively. I’ve learned that the image is not reality it does is a cognitive composite. When you look down the cue it should appear to be pointing directly ahead. The overhead view should enable you to see equal amouts of both sides of the rounded surface.

The challenge is how to get there. Start by getting behind the cue. Lift the butt and look down it. The cue is about five feet long. At that distance a 1° deviation would be an inch. Coaching wisdom is to approach the table from a distance on the line. From 10 feet 1° of deviation is two inches. From 15 feet, 3 inches. Distance let’s you align standing up with accuracy. Holding the cue ahead of your right side on line move forward. Space permitting put the tip on the table in front of the ball still on line while standing. You should be still looking down the cue line. The cue should be in place. I now move my right foot into place along and under the cue. The left side should be behind the right. Sense the one handedness of the setup. The right arm and cue need to be aligned.
Slip your bridge in place without changing the cue direction and let your left side move forward. Your head should move directly ahead down the cue line as the bridge slides forward into place gently lifting the cue tip off the table. Stop. You should feel like you are directly over the cue and looking straight ahead down the cue.

This was a long process for me to discover. Being back and moving the right foot forward first meant that as I moved forward and down my right shoulder felt like the bending elbow, while lowering, brought it directly down over the cue.

Refuse to accept a perspective where the cue appears to angle left or right. A straight on view has neither. Here is a link of Dr Dave about the visuals. https://billiards.colostate.edu/bd_articles/2011/july11.pdf

Ronnie O’Sullivan principles.
Foot to line
Cue straight
Stay down
 
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Matt_24

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
So.. I am left eye dominant, and I play right-handed. I am pretty sure this is severely effecting my game, as I often struggle to know whether I am "on line" when shots get out past about 6 feet, and even if I make these balls, I often hit them slightly too thick or thin.

I never really payed much attention to this aspect of my game, but thinking back, it might be the main reason for inconsistent results.. When I am playing a lot, I naturally correct in whatever way, whether it be tilting my head, or simply I start subconsciously using my right eye, (or both eyes) as both eyes corrected with contacts, I'd say both eyes are of about equal strength.

I did a quick search, and people have mentioned that cross dominance can possibly be corrected by wearing a patch to force use of the nondominant eye at all times. Some people automatically revert to the dominant eye as soon as the patch is removed. Also, wearing an occluded contact in the currently dominant eye has been mentioned.

I'd really like to correct this issue, and I am simply not coordinated enough to switch hands. All this came about because a relative neophyte pool player friend of mine here in Germany mentioned going to an optometrist who happened to be a pool player, who gave him a new contact lense prescription that somehow corrected his cross dominance.

I do realize everyone is different anatomically, and he might have just gotten lucky, but, considering that both my eyes are equally strong, it seems I might have other options.

Any opinions/experiences?

Don't overthink it. A lot of hall of famers and world class were/are opposite eye dominant. They generally had/have a higher stance on their shots.
 

pt109

WO double hemlock
Silver Member
I have a lazy left eye...so my cue is generally a bit right of center when chin on cue.

But I look first...and bring my cue to my vision...I don’t look down my cue.
I’ve had some days playing snooker when my left eye was dominant..and ran 100s...
...and I can’t read other than very large print with my left eye.

I suggest players should work on their hand-eye coordination....
...it’s so much better than lining up...
..sorta like being in a fight...you pick a spot on the guy’s chin...and hit it.

Aiming is so much more complicated than lining up...spinning involves an awareness
that sight lines can’t handle...even on center ball, the object ball goes different places
at different speeds and on different cloths

Some guide lines are important to a beginner, but at some point you gotta lose the
training wheels..
 

CocoboloCowboy

Cowboys are my hero's
Silver Member
There was a great line in the movie Heartbreak Ridge{/b]. Improvise, adapt, overcome. If you do not get it I suggest a simple search on U-Tube.

Roger Crawford Disable Tennis Player. He should not Have been able to accomplish what "normal" people can do. But he understood what Clint Eastwood said about improvising, adapting, and overcoming.

BTW he was first NCAA Division One Athlete with Four not normal limbs. Went to College on a Tennis Schloprship and did not have much going for himself except he did not have "can't, or can not do" in his voculabary.

Like I said do a U-Tube search, it should be easy as a few computer key strokes.
 
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ShootingArts

Smorg is giving St Peter the 7!
Gold Member
Silver Member
the shots where you can't line up ...

I have a lazy left eye...so my cue is generally a bit right of center when chin on cue.

But I look first...and bring my cue to my vision...I don’t look down my cue.
I’ve had some days playing snooker when my left eye was dominant..and ran 100s...
...and I can’t read other than very large print with my left eye.

I suggest players should work on their hand-eye coordination....
...it’s so much better than lining up...
..sorta like being in a fight...you pick a spot on the guy’s chin...and hit it.

Aiming is so much more complicated than lining up...spinning involves an awareness
that sight lines can’t handle...even on center ball, the object ball goes different places
at different speeds and on different cloths

Some guide lines are important to a beginner, but at some point you gotta lose the
training wheels.
.


Just wanted to voice my very strong agreement. Countless posts about stance, head alignment, eye alignment, how to aim, all good stuff when it is possible. However, when two players are of equal ability or matched up fairly it is usually a few shots that decide the winner. It is often the person that makes the butt awkward shots where you are contorted like a pretzel and your eyes are not even close to looking down the cue shaft.

"Everybody" makes the easy shots. It is who makes the tough ones that usually matters.

Hu
 

Jimbojim

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Knowing I'm left-eye dominant and being a right-handed, I messed with my stance for years trying to have my left eye right over the cuestick. Eventually a local pro just said, put the cuestick over your chin and your eyes will do the rest.

He was right...if that can help.
 

dr_dave

Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
So.. I am left eye dominant, and I play right-handed. I am pretty sure this is severely effecting my game, as I often struggle to know whether I am "on line" when shots get out past about 6 feet, and even if I make these balls, I often hit them slightly too thick or thin.
For pool, it is not important which eye might be "dominant" or not. What matters is positioning your head consistently in your personal "vision center" position. If you want to find this, check out the videos and articles here:

"vision center" resource page

Proper and consistent "vision center" alignment is the most important fundamental of pool!

Good luck,
Dave
 
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ShortBusRuss

Short Bus Russ - C Player
Silver Member
Thanks for all the feedback, everyone. After a lot of consideration, and reading your responses, I have come to the conclusion that I just don't practice enough, mostly due to my weight. My back hurts when I put in hours, so my wife and I are focusing on working out for now, and I am specifically working on strengthening my back/legs with squats and deadlifts.

After all, I played an recent 8 ball match in Frankfurt where I broke and ran 3 racks, and ran out two of my opponent's dry breaks, so I guess my alignment can't be terrible.

I then had another match Saturday on very slow tables, and noted that, not having the option of "easing" balls into the pockets, I was having to pay more attention to the aim line, and delivering the cue straight... And having only partial success. The main takeaway from this session is that my stroke was not that powerful, and this was what was causing inaccurate hits, not my eye position.

I usually address this with some form of bottle training, but with my back pain, I just haven't been doing it. To be clear, I don't have any issues at all with my back besides the muscle fatigue from the hanging belly, so I am trying to address that.

Thanks for your feedback.
 

ShootingArts

Smorg is giving St Peter the 7!
Gold Member
Silver Member
channel training

Thanks for all the feedback, everyone. After a lot of consideration, and reading your responses, I have come to the conclusion that I just don't practice enough, mostly due to my weight. My back hurts when I put in hours, so my wife and I are focusing on working out for now, and I am specifically working on strengthening my back/legs with squats and deadlifts.

After all, I played an recent 8 ball match in Frankfurt where I broke and ran 3 racks, and ran out two of my opponent's dry breaks, so I guess my alignment can't be terrible.

I then had another match Saturday on very slow tables, and noted that, not having the option of "easing" balls into the pockets, I was having to pay more attention to the aim line, and delivering the cue straight... And having only partial success. The main takeaway from this session is that my stroke was not that powerful, and this was what was causing inaccurate hits, not my eye position.

I usually address this with some form of bottle training, but with my back pain, I just haven't been doing it. To be clear, I don't have any issues at all with my back besides the muscle fatigue from the hanging belly, so I am trying to address that.

Thanks for your feedback.


Russ,

I think you already know it when you say "some form of bottle training" but any device that doesn't allow vertical movement in your stroke is bad. You can get a dead straight piston stroke but it serves no purpose and is far more complicated than it needs to be.

I have to admit my first thought when you said bottle training was twelve to thirty-two ounces but creating some sort of channel for the cue to pass through is probably the best option. I created a very long shaft extension once where you were forced to stroke straight from side to side and you felt less and less effort to do that as your stroke straightened Basically a cue shaft with a several foot high quality aluminum dowel added where the tip would be. The dowel was constrained by posts side to side and free to move up and down. It was a good trainer I thought. No way to make such toys now.

Hu
 

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
For pool, it is not important which eye might be "dominant" or not. What matters is positioning your head consistently in your personal "vision center" position. If you want to find this, check out the videos and articles here:

"vision center" resource page

Proper and consistent "vision center" alignment is the most important fundamental of pool!

Good luck,
Dave

The above is a wrong statement and dangerous to follow.
 

dr_dave

Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
For pool, it is not important which eye might be "dominant" or not. What matters is positioning your head consistently in your personal "vision center" position. If you want to find this, check out the videos and articles here:

"vision center" resource page

Proper and consistent "vision center" alignment is the most important fundamental of pool!
The above is a wrong statement and dangerous to follow.
Fran,

Based on our recent discussion in another thread, I think I know where you are coming from here, but that is quite a strong statement on your part.

If I understand your view correctly, based on what you wrote in the previous thread, you seem to think that a person should position their head in a "natural" position (based on their "natural" stance), and learn to see shots right from this perspective (or make aiming adjustments as required). That way, they won't need to force themselves into an unnatural position (which might not be very effective when one is tired or nervous). You also seem to think that most people's natural position will be with the cue under or close to their dominant eye. If I mischaracterized your views, I apologize, and please correct me.

I think it is certainly possible to do this and be able to reach a high level of play; however, I don't believe it is the best (most effective) approach for most people. What comes natural is not always the best technique. As I shared before, in the past I used to position my head with the cue fairly close to my dominant eye. That came naturally to me. However, at some point I realized I was not visualizing lines of aim and cue alignments correctly. At times I would make subconscious corrections, but I would often miss long shots, even when I was aiming and stroking very carefully. Once I realized that I could visualize everything more correctly by instead positioning my head in my personal "vision center" position (with the cue more centered under my chin), I made changes in my stance to allow me to get my head in the right place. My game improved immediately as a result. I have also successfully worked with many students who have had similar issues, and they certainly would not agree with your assessment of my approach. Also, there are many top players (pool and snooker) who have a dominant eye and yet position the cue somewhere other than beneath (or close to) their dominant eye. Many (if not most) of these players have the cue centered (or very close to centered) between the eyes, with the cue touching (or almost touching) the center of their chin.

Regardless, as with all fundamentals, one can learn to master anything, even if it isn't what makes sense as the "best practice" approach. Someone mentioned Bob Jewett as an example. For his entire pool-playing life, he has positioned his head in the "wrong" place (i.e., not in his personal "vision center" position). As a result of this, he doesn't quite see the CB center or the line of the shot correctly. To compensate, he subconsciously learned to swoop his stroke slightly. Because he put in so much practice time over so many years, he has managed to master this technique fairly well. However, he agrees with me that he probably would have had a much easier journey (and maybe could have excelled even earlier and at a higher level) if he had started with his head in the right place. Then he would not have needed to subconsciously (or consciously) make aiming or stroking corrections. And he would have been able to use a perfectly straight stroke.

Again, I know our perspectives are totally different on this issue, but I think it is inappropriate (and unprofessional) for you to characterize my approach as "wrong ... and dangerous to follow." I have worked hard to research, study, practice, publish, share, and teach the "vision center" approach, and I think it has benefited many people (myself and my students included). Also, many people now use my "vision center" phrase and agree that it is one of the most important "best practice" fundamentals of pool.

Regards,
Dave
 
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Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
...I look first...and bring my cue to my vision...I don’t look down my cue.
I do that too, but with an added final step: look first, bring cue to vision, then check/tweak to align stroke with vision. I'm trying to work my way past needing that final tweak... it's getting smaller at least.

pj <- not cross-dominant
chgo
 

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Fran,

Based on our recent discussion in another thread, I think I know where you are coming from here, but that is quite a strong statement on your part.

If I understand your view correctly, based on what you wrote in the previous thread, you seem to think that a person should position their head in a "natural" position (based on their "natural" stance), and learn to see shots right from this perspective (or make aiming adjustments as required). That way, they won't need to force themselves into an unnatural position (which might not be very effective when one is tired or nervous). You also seem to think that most people's natural position will be with the cue under or close to their dominant eye. If I mischaracterized your views, I apologize, and please correct me.

I think it is certainly possible to do this and be able to reach a high level of play; however, I don't believe it is the best (most effective) approach for most people. What comes natural is not always the best technique. As I shared before, in the past I used to position my head with the cue fairly close to my dominant eye. That came naturally to me. However, at some point I realized I was not visualizing lines of aim and cue alignments correctly. At times I would make subconscious corrections, but I would often miss long shots, even when I was aiming and stroking very carefully. Once I realized that I could visualize everything more correctly by instead positioning my head in my personal "vision center" position (with the cue more centered under my chin), I made changes in my stance to allow me to get my head in the right place. My game improved immediately as a result. I have also successfully worked with many students who have had similar issues, and they certainly would not agree with your assessment of my approach. Also, there are many top players (pool and snooker) who have a dominant eye and yet position the cue somewhere other than beneath (or close to) their dominant eye. Many (if not most) of these players have the cue centered (or very close to centered) between the eyes, with the cue touching (or almost touching) the center of their chin.

Regardless, as with all fundamentals, one can learn to master anything, even if it isn't what makes sense as the "best practice" approach. Someone mentioned Bob Jewett as an example. For his entire pool-playing life, he has positioned his head in the "wrong" place (i.e., not in his personal "vision center" position). As a result of this, he doesn't quite see the CB center or the line of the shot correctly. To compensate, he subconsciously learned to swoop his stroke slightly. Because he put in so much practice time over so many years, he has managed to master this technique fairly well. However, he agrees with me that he probably would have had a much easier journey (and maybe could have excelled even earlier and at a higher level) if he had started with his head in the right place. Then he would not have needed to subconsciously (or consciously) make aiming or stroking corrections. And he would have been able to use a perfectly straight stroke.

Again, I know our perspectives are totally different on this issue, but I think it is inappropriate (and unprofessional) for you to characterize my approach as "wrong ... and dangerous to follow." I have worked hard to research, study, practice, publish, share, and teach the "vision center" approach, and I think it has benefited many people (myself and my students included). Also, many people now use my "vision center" phrase and agree that it is one of the most important "best practice" fundamentals of pool.

Regards,
Dave

I don't see anywhere in your research that you consulted with the medical profession as I have or did any research into other sports as I have. But rather, you just keep repeating your theories over and over. My suggestion to you is to expand your research outside of your own lab and outside of cue sports and maybe you'll have a better grasp on the issue of dominant eye, and maybe you'll understand why I say that your current advice can be hurtful to players who are trying to improve.

Is it more important for you to be a creator of something than to seek out the truth, wherever it may take you, and get it right?

I will tell you right now that for many players, your solution will be short-lived and become frustrating to them over time.
 
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dr_dave

Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
For pool, it is not important which eye might be "dominant" or not. What matters is positioning your head consistently in your personal "vision center" position. If you want to find this, check out the videos and articles here:

"vision center" resource page

Proper and consistent "vision center" alignment is the most important fundamental of pool!
The above is a wrong statement and dangerous to follow.
Fran,

Based on our recent discussion in another thread, I think I know where you are coming from here, but that is quite a strong statement on your part.

If I understand your view correctly, based on what you wrote in the previous thread, you seem to think that a person should position their head in a "natural" position (based on their "natural" stance), and learn to see shots right from this perspective (or make aiming adjustments as required). That way, they won't need to force themselves into an unnatural position (which might not be very effective when one is tired or nervous). You also seem to think that most people's natural position will be with the cue under or close to their dominant eye. If I mischaracterized your views, I apologize, and please correct me.

I think it is certainly possible to do this and be able to reach a high level of play; however, I don't believe it is the best (most effective) approach for most people. What comes natural is not always the best technique. As I shared before, in the past I used to position my head with the cue fairly close to my dominant eye. That came naturally to me. However, at some point I realized I was not visualizing lines of aim and cue alignments correctly. At times I would make subconscious corrections, but I would often miss long shots, even when I was aiming and stroking very carefully. Once I realized that I could visualize everything more correctly by instead positioning my head in my personal "vision center" position (with the cue more centered under my chin), I made changes in my stance to allow me to get my head in the right place. My game improved immediately as a result. I have also successfully worked with many students who have had similar issues, and they certainly would not agree with your assessment of my approach. Also, there are many top players (pool and snooker) who have a dominant eye and yet position the cue somewhere other than beneath (or close to) their dominant eye. Many (if not most) of these players have the cue centered (or very close to centered) between the eyes, with the cue touching (or almost touching) the center of their chin.

Regardless, as with all fundamentals, one can learn to master anything, even if it isn't what makes sense as the "best practice" approach. Someone mentioned Bob Jewett as an example. For his entire pool-playing life, he has positioned his head in the "wrong" place (i.e., not in his personal "vision center" position). As a result of this, he doesn't quite see the CB center or the line of the shot correctly. To compensate, he subconsciously learned to swoop his stroke slightly. Because he put in so much practice time over so many years, he has managed to master this technique fairly well. However, he agrees with me that he probably would have had a much easier journey (and maybe could have excelled even earlier and at a higher level) if he had started with his head in the right place. Then he would not have needed to subconsciously (or consciously) make aiming or stroking corrections. And he would have been able to use a perfectly straight stroke.

Again, I know our perspectives are totally different on this issue, but I think it is inappropriate (and unprofessional) for you to characterize my approach as "wrong ... and dangerous to follow." I have worked hard to research, study, practice, publish, share, and teach the "vision center" approach, and I think it has benefited many people (myself and my students included). Also, many people now use my "vision center" phrase and agree that it is one of the most important "best practice" fundamentals of pool.
I don't see anywhere in your research that you consulted with the medical profession as I have or did any research into other sports as I have. But rather, you just keep repeating your theories over and over. My suggestion to you is to expand your research outside of your own lab and maybe you'll have a better grasp on the issue of dominant eye, and maybe you'll understand why I say that your current advice can be hurtful to players who are trying to improve.
Fran,

This is obviously a "hot topic" for you, and I doubt I would be able to sway your strong opinions on the matter.

If people want to learn more about these topics and decide for themselves, I suggest reading all of the material and linked articles on the following resource pages:

dominant eye

vision center

Regards,
Dave

PS: Fran, FYI, I have read all of the articles mentioned and linked in all of the quotes on the dominant eye resource page (including the articles from the "medical profession"). You should also. I also recommend you read the article I wrote for Billiards Digest dealing with visual alignment in pool:

Aim, Align, Sight - Part II: Visual Alignment” (BD, July, 2011)

Also, Richard Kranicki's book: “Answers To A Pool Player’s Prayers” has some good thoughts on the matter.
 
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