How long a backstroke?

Dan White

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Same here, Bill. I began teaching because I remember thinking so often as I was learning the game --- Who do I trust? Many came and went and there were times I thought as a student, that I would pull my hair out because I just wasn't getting what they were saying, or it just didn't make sense to me.

It wasn't until I tore my own game apart bit by bit and put it back together, one bit at a time, that I can relate to any point a player is at in their learning process. I was there and all the different stages, myself.

I learned if I could read the mind of the player I was helping while he was playing, then I could connect with him. If a teacher is just superficially looking at what a player is doing on a table, and not understanding how he's thinking and feeling, then you can only do a half-baked job in helping them.

Every word I share with my clients personally and what I write in this forum comes from the blood, sweat and tears of what I went through as a player. I think you're the same way, Bill.

This is an excellent post. I think it is fair to say that there is a definable goal when executing a pool shot. You need to be able to deliver the cue tip to the intended spot on the cb with a cue that moves straight on that line at the right speed. The confusion is that there seems to be many ways to achieve that goal, and what works for one may not work for another. Just look at all the back and forth on follow through, or the competing ideas on grip strength. This was very frustrating to me as I was able to make shots in a variety of ways and I didn't know if one was better than the other. There was no "standard" as their seems to be in snooker. That lead me to purchasing Mark Wilson's book which I thought was excellent. That book led me to believe (because of what it said and also what it didn't say) that some things can be taught while others have to be simply learned and figured out by the player.

I think an instructor can get a student to a certain level of play, but beyond that the player has to figure out some things for him/herself if they want to keep getting better. It's like how you can't explain what the color blue or red looks like to a blind person. You just have to experience it yourself. You really can't show someone what a relaxed delivery of the cue feels like. You have to just figure it out on your own by hitting lots of balls and paying attention. Every once in awhile you'll do it right and if you are paying attention you will have a "Eureka" moment and realize you were doing this or that wrong up to now.

I'm not saying that an instructor can't tweak things or notice bad habits, and can certainly help a lot with strategy and the mental aspects of competition, but the student has to figure out some of this stuff with time at the table.

I took a lesson from Fran many years ago and didn't take more because of travel time, but mostly because I was starting a new business and didn't have time. I remember one specific thing she said that helped me. It was that when you are faced with a difficult shot, that is the time that you have to make extra sure that you hit the shot with as much relaxation as you would hit an easy shot. In other words, be sure not to tense up and change your stroke just because you have a shot that is difficult. That's the kind of thing you learn from experience.
 

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
What is up with all the animus on this website?!?

I came here expecting to find like-minded individuals who enjoy the game. I expected sharing of ideas, techniques, general discussion about the game, and the like. What did I find? A TON of elitist comments and attitude. While there are many, many helpful contributors here, the overwhelming tone of this site is for the gambler, the pro, the hustler, and the arrogant with comments mostly exclusive, not inclusive.

I have taken one paid lesson nearly a year ago, and I won't name names - I went with a goal of working on fixing my mechanics; what I got for my one hour lesson was 10 minutes of an analysis of my stroke and stance, and 50 minutes of "standard" "do these standard draw and follow speed control drills" which did nothing to help my shot making.

Matt volunteered to help me. Scott Lee also had some conversations with me. Unfortunately, with COVID-19 furlough, I am not in a position to invest the not insignificant $$, while I"m sure they'd be worth it, for a lesson.

Scott volunteered to help me think about my game, what I do and why I do it, and I appreciate it. Matt took it a step further and offered a virtual video lesson, which we did this week. From both I gained valuable input.

What I cannot understand are the aggressive comments and the elitist tone of so many posts. So, and I'm SURE offenders don't really give a shit whether they've chased away an amateur hobbyist (which may, in fact, comprise the lion's share of league participants), I'm out. Enjoy your website. I no longer find this site enjoyable.

Good. Glad to see you cleared things up. Matt became possessive of you and claimed you as his 'student' and accused me of tampering with you --- his 'student' and threatened legal action against me because I advised you and everyone else who reads this forum to be alert about taking lessons. Now Matt owes me an apology for his libelous comments directed at harming my reputation.
 

Island Drive

Otto/Dads College Roommate/Cleveland Browns
Silver Member
Good. Glad to see you cleared things up. Matt became possessive of you and claimed you as his 'student' and accused me of tampering with you --- his 'student' and threatened legal action against me because I advised you and everyone else who reads this forum to be alert about taking lessons. Now Matt owes me an apology for his libelous comments directed at harming my reputation.

Wow....the pettiness of some. LOL Been close to 100 here lately, dead of summer.
 

BilliardsAbout

BondFanEvents.com
Silver Member
Your student? You mean the one who posted a question here and who we all gave free advice to, including yourself? YOUR student? When did this person become YOUR student? I'd like to know. My lawyer would like to know. I don't take too kindly to libelous accusations of student tampering. You had better clear this up now or I won't take this lightly. If that person states here that they are officially your student. I won't answer any of their questions or give them advice anymore. But if they aren't your exclusive student, you're going to have some explaining to do for your libelous accusation.

Taking the definition of "libel" as "a published false statement that is damaging to a person's reputation; a written defamation," this entire thread, and others, contains false statements you've made about me.

I don't need to qualify who is "my" student or "your" student to ask you--again--to not post false statements about me to a student after I gave them a lesson and they posted here that I helped them.
 
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BilliardsAbout

BondFanEvents.com
Silver Member
Look up the definition of paraphrase. I said 100 Fargo points / you said 2 skill levels.
I'm paraphrasing and also somewhat exaggerating to get the point across that you constantly make statements that have no basis in fact, that virtually no one believes, then when challenged try to defend your assertions with more gibberish.

Let's put the 8 second video link up so others can grasp what your trying to demonstrate cuz I have to admit I couldn't. http://bondfanevents.com/wp-content/...822_092718.mp4 **Well the link doesn't work, maybe Matt can fix it.
Oh and the reason it's so short is Matt didn't want it to take to long to download or slow down our computers with too much data.

Might as well link the other thread also. https://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=497735
People can decide for themselves how credible the 4 posters you're talking about are. I'd just point out that none of them has posted since, 3 of the 4 have 7 posts between them and the 4th hadn't posted for years.

Next you just arbitrarily state that I've been struggling for decades and are in desperate need of (your) help which you'll provide for free cuz you want to be friends. A few posts back you were quoting scripture that inferred the devil had me in his grip and hoped that the Lord would show me the error of my ways so I could escape Satans clutches.
Now you've decided I should be banned. How bout this, I'll ban myself.
Going back to the 14.1 forum where I belong.

You statement above is filled with falsehoods. If you want to interact with me, be truthful, respectful.
 

BilliardsAbout

BondFanEvents.com
Silver Member
Good. Glad to see you cleared things up. Matt became possessive of you and claimed you as his 'student' and accused me of tampering with you --- his 'student' and threatened legal action against me because I advised you and everyone else who reads this forum to be alert about taking lessons. Now Matt owes me an apology for his libelous comments directed at harming my reputation.

This message is inappropriate, if you have something to say regarding me, please address it to me. It is evident the poster left because of your comment to him, after I asked you to leave him be.

I did not threaten legal action against you, nor would I do so on a public forum--as that creates inherent trouble for the site itself.
 

azhousepro

Administrator
Staff member
Admin
Moderator
Wow, this is an awful lot of insults and negativity starting with someone asking a simple question. Some of this reeks of the aiming forum.

Where is all of this animosity coming from? Cabin fever?

Matt, I noticed your claim about "world's largest pool site with the most articles and biggest readership". Which site were you referring to?

Mike
 

BilliardsAbout

BondFanEvents.com
Silver Member
Wow, this is an awful lot of insults and negativity starting with someone asking a simple question. Some of this reeks of the aiming forum.

Where is all of this animosity coming from? Cabin fever?

Matt, I noticed your claim about "world's largest pool site with the most articles and biggest readership". Which site were you referring to?

Mike

Yes, Mike, it is upsetting, since as I'm doing my level best to calm and smooth things over and be a peacemaker here.

About.com is still in my signature--prior to website restructuring (moving articles from About.com to different sites under their ownership to capture SEO) my Pool/Snooker/Billiards site was the largest/most read site in the world--mostly instructional articles plus pool culture and history. Even the sub-sites are still the largest/busiest, though, as it was far and away the largest and most popular site. Hundreds of thousands of words of pool instruction.

It's nice to know when you post an instruction article that tens of thousands of readers will dig into it--the first week it is posted!
 
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azhousepro

Administrator
Staff member
Admin
Moderator
I can see that, and I appreciate it. With the other fires going on here, this was the last place I expected to see something like this.

While I can see that you have written a ton of content over there and that is definitely something to be very proud of, I doubt there are more than 14,979 posts (and counting) over there.

We really don't have to whip out rulers, and since neither of us have any way of knowing what kind of actual traffic the other is getting, how about neither of us lay claim to being the "largest/most read billiard site in the world".

Mike

Yes, Mike, it is upsetting, since as I'm doing my level best to calm and smooth things over and be a peacemaker here.

About.com is still in my signature--prior to website restructuring (moving articles from About.com to different sites under their ownership to capture SEO) my Pool/Snooker/Billiards site was the largest/most read site in the world--mostly instructional articles plus pool culture and history. Even the sub-sites are still the largest/busiest, though, as it was far and away the largest and most popular site. Hundreds of thousands of words of pool instruction.

It's nice to know when you post an instruction article that tens of thousands of readers will dig into it--the first week it is posted!
 

BilliardsAbout

BondFanEvents.com
Silver Member
I can see that, and I appreciate it. With the other fires going on here, this was the last place I expected to see something like this.

While I can see that you have written a ton of content over there and that is definitely something to be very proud of, I doubt there are more than 14,979 posts (and counting) over there.

We really don't have to whip out rulers, and since neither of us have any way of knowing what kind of actual traffic the other is getting, how about neither of us lay claim to being the "largest/most read billiard site in the world".

Mike

Thank you. I don't know where the "14,979 posts" reference is, but if you send a URL, I'll see what that's about.

We do employ SEO researchers and work with Google so we know we're a strong site(s) but I'll tone it down. I was defending against the claim that I don't know how to teach. I get constant notes from readers and students that they are loving pool better with my help--and I seek collaboration here with fellow teachers, not battles.
 
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Island Drive

Otto/Dads College Roommate/Cleveland Browns
Silver Member
Thank you. I don't know where the "14,979 posts" reference is, but if you send a URL, I'll see what that's about.

We do employ SEO researchers and work with Google so we know we're a strong site(s) but I'll tone it down. I was defending against the claim that I don't know how to teach. I get constant notes from readers and students that they are loving pool better with my help--and I seek collaboration here with fellow teachers, not battles.

Originally Posted by BilliardsAbout View Post
This below is his reply to my post.

''And do you tell this to other people's students, after they report that they had a great experience with a different teacher?You do not.''

I have no clue who you are, therefore Telling Me(''I do not'') feels confrontational. My dad always Told me what to do. But a keyboard person ''telling me what I do or do not do'' whom I do not know....speaks for itself.
 

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Wow, this is an awful lot of insults and negativity starting with someone asking a simple question. Some of this reeks of the aiming forum.

Where is all of this animosity coming from? Cabin fever?

Matt, I noticed your claim about "world's largest pool site with the most articles and biggest readership". Which site were you referring to?

Mike

Here's the thing --- We have choices to make when we see someone giving out bad advice in the instructor's forum. We can either challenge it, or we can let it go, knowing that it will probably set a player back quite a bit. I choose to challenge it. When you do that with someone like Matt, he then responds with post after post explaining and re-explaining his position from 50 ways-sideways. Usually I just end my part of it there because the readers can see once the truth is exposed. This time it didn't end so quickly but that's unusual. It's all about exposing the truth. Then we can move on to the next question.
 

Dan White

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Here's the thing --- We have choices to make when we see someone giving out bad advice in the instructor's forum. We can either challenge it, or we can let it go, knowing that it will probably set a player back quite a bit. I choose to challenge it. ...It's all about exposing the truth. Then we can move on to the next question.

This applies perfectly to the aiming forum. You could easily dissolve that forum if the false claims stopped, which they have for the last month or so.
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
This applies perfectly to the aiming forum. You could easily dissolve that forum if the false claims stopped, which they have for the last month or so.
The "Aiming Conversation" forum (I love that name) was explicitly created to quarantine the toxic topic of CTE. Aiming could be discussed civilly in the main forum if CTE didn't come up.

pj
chgo
 

evergruven

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Here's the thing --- We have choices to make when we see someone giving out bad advice in the instructor's forum. We can either challenge it, or we can let it go, knowing that it will probably set a player back quite a bit. I choose to challenge it. When you do that with someone like Matt, he then responds with post after post explaining and re-explaining his position from 50 ways-sideways. Usually I just end my part of it there because the readers can see once the truth is exposed. This time it didn't end so quickly but that's unusual. It's all about exposing the truth. Then we can move on to the next question.

nailed it

challenge
discuss
stay pale, get a tan, or get burnt...
 

BilliardsAbout

BondFanEvents.com
Silver Member
Originally Posted by BilliardsAbout View Post
This below is his reply to my post.

''And do you tell this to other people's students, after they report that they had a great experience with a different teacher?You do not.''

I have no clue who you are, therefore Telling Me(''I do not'') feels confrontational. My dad always Told me what to do. But a keyboard person ''telling me what I do or do not do'' whom I do not know....speaks for itself.

I apologize for telling you what you do, but your post seemed to be about warning aspiring students, not attacking a student for daring to post we had a fine lesson.
 

BilliardsAbout

BondFanEvents.com
Silver Member
Here's the thing --- We have choices to make when we see someone giving out bad advice in the instructor's forum. We can either challenge it, or we can let it go, knowing that it will probably set a player back quite a bit. I choose to challenge it. When you do that with someone like Matt, he then responds with post after post explaining and re-explaining his position from 50 ways-sideways. Usually I just end my part of it there because the readers can see once the truth is exposed. This time it didn't end so quickly but that's unusual. It's all about exposing the truth. Then we can move on to the next question.

I do respond with "post after post" when you make more than one post with lies about me, sure. You would do the same if I lied regarding you.

The truth is I told a student "shorter bridge" and he said "works great"!

Next, you said "careful about poked strokes" than attacked me for suggesting smooth, long backstrokes, which help avoid poked strokes with a short bridge.

"This time it didn't end so quickly but that's unusual."

Your anger level this time was unusual. Your driving a student off AZ completely was unusual.

I've not seen one post on this thread with facts from you. Please respond with facts to this . . .

A short bridge can help many players, particularly if they emphasize smooth, full backstrokes. Physics and logic agree with this fact.

. . . or don't respond at all. Again, I'm comfortable debating pool facts with you. People see through your "that looks wrong, you don't know" without the posting of facts.

PS. I noticed you were silent when I challenged you to a teaching competition.
 
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