I think Mark was advocating what I call the "cramp" stroke in which your grip hand will be nearly at the joint, and your upper arm keeps you from following through because you are "out of follow through."Neil said:
Advice when CB is close to OB
- Thread starter Andrew Manning
- Start date
This can be hit much softer than you would think with much less follow through than you might think to get the cue ball up table. I can only explain it as a flick stroke with wrist and fingertips. A level cue and a snap or flick actually pulling back a bit. A few practice strokes stopping short of contact to get the feel. I don't think it would be too hard once you practice this light flick stroke. (wish I could explain it better)
The Preacher
Registered
If your really close you would have to jack up the cue and use a left english masse to jerk the ball down the table, but from the picture I would say hit up through the ball. Flatten your back hand until you are practically rubbing cloth and stroke light with a very light grip. The cue when hit up into the cueball will naturally move up and over the would be double hit
I don't know what you guys are smoking with this "hit up through the ball" idea. In order to even get your hand over the cloth in that picture you'd have to grip the cue in front of the joint. The cue ball is less than two feet from the rail.
Even if you put the cue ball past the side pocket and grip the butt with your fingertips so you can slide the cue on the cloth, you might barely be able to get enough upward angle to "hit up into the cue ball" without miscueing, but I doubt it. This idea is a pipe dream.
pj
chgo
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Braditude7
B.C.A Cert. Instructor
Shorten Bridge lenth use a open bridge. Than choke up on the butt of cue until your grip hand is compressing into your chest as the tip barely penatrates whitey. It may take some practice but you should be able to get full table lenth follow with balls just a chalk width apart. I have seen better players than me get it from even closer.
Patrick Johnson said:
Pat, I think what they are trying to convey here is the shot is similar to the "shot" in the movie the Hustler. Where Paul Newman freezes the two balls to the rail and then banks it in the corner. Here, he shoots through the top of the ball to make the bank.
They are saying to "raise" the bridge hand" up like you are shooting over a ball and then lowering the butt of the cue. By doing this, you are leaving yourself enough room for the butt of the cue to miss hitting the back rail. You only have to get up about an inch.
Although, the shot in the Hustler is performed by shooting slightly at an angle, I think that the angle is is enough to perform the same shot.
I haven't set this up on a table, but, it looks like it could be made doing it this way. Also, as you say, needs to be practiced whatever route you take. They do come up a lot during matches. JMO
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Patrick Johnson said:
Fire it up, fire it up and the flesh be damned!
First of all, I've tried this shot a few times, but my stroke isn't that good. I only get the CB like in the middle between the CB's original spot and the spot where you want the CB be after shooting the 8-ball. With a better stroke you might get what you want. My technique is, jack up the cue a little and hit the CB on a high spot. After the hit, your cue will stops, you will feel that you are hitting the CB into the table, just a little not much. It works for me, so you can try it if you want.
Mark Avlon said:
I like this idea, and I'm surprised I never thought of trying it before. I don't drop my elbow, and with my low stance my finish is only about 7 inches past the CB anyway, so I think with a little practice I could make this work, and be vastly more reliable than my current "jerk the cue and then try to bring it to an immediate stop, with predictably unpredictable results" method.
Thanks for the tip.
-Andrew
klockdoc said:
The shot in the hustler involves the CB being frozen to the OB, thus making it legal to stroke forward through both balls. The tip does deflect up out of the way in order to allow the bank to go, but if the balls were 1/8" apart instead of frozen, it would almost certainly be a foul. If you magaed to separate the balls 1/8" and make the shot without fouling, that would be a fouette shot, which requires hitting a slight cut shot with inside, so the tip deflects one direction off the CB, and the CB deflects the opposite direction off the OB, creating enough separation for the follow-through not to create a double-hit.
I have practiced the fouette shot a bit, because I think it's a fun shot to shoot, but it's not really useful for straight or nearly-straight follow and draw. I started this thread to ask about those, because those are the shots where I always either foul or fail to execute the shot.
-Andrew
I haven't read all the posts so forgive me if this has been said.
I learned a few years ago how to shoot a straight on shot from 1/4 inch away straight on with draw or follow with no foul. I highly recommend practicing this stroke before attempting it in a match.
Adopt a very short bridge.
Choke up on your cue and close your back arm until you cannot move it forward any more. Completely compress your bicep.
Position the cue tip about 1/4 inch behind the cue ball.
Stroke medium.
According to physics you cannot push or double hit the CB as that your stroke can not follow through beyond center of the CB. It isn't possible.
That said, should you need to hit harder than a medium stroke, increase the distance between the cue tip and CB marginally.
Like I said, this takes practice but can be done. With a little practice you can even learn to play english and draw. Draw is tough because you must move so quickly.
I love doing this shot in front of refs. You can hear them about to call a foul as soon as you set up with a level cue stick...but a good ref is attentive and will realize after contact that no foul occurred. They usually want to talk to you about that shot after the match too.
I learned a few years ago how to shoot a straight on shot from 1/4 inch away straight on with draw or follow with no foul. I highly recommend practicing this stroke before attempting it in a match.
Adopt a very short bridge.
Choke up on your cue and close your back arm until you cannot move it forward any more. Completely compress your bicep.
Position the cue tip about 1/4 inch behind the cue ball.
Stroke medium.
According to physics you cannot push or double hit the CB as that your stroke can not follow through beyond center of the CB. It isn't possible.
That said, should you need to hit harder than a medium stroke, increase the distance between the cue tip and CB marginally.
Like I said, this takes practice but can be done. With a little practice you can even learn to play english and draw. Draw is tough because you must move so quickly.
I love doing this shot in front of refs. You can hear them about to call a foul as soon as you set up with a level cue stick...but a good ref is attentive and will realize after contact that no foul occurred. They usually want to talk to you about that shot after the match too.
I agree the snap of the wrist is a do-able shot and probably the best. Takes a lil practice learning the stroke but valuable. If the shot was below the last diamond (closer to foot rail), I would agree that stroking up thru the CB would be very difficult because of the rail interference, but once you get a diamond or more away from the head rail/foot rail, this shot really is possible w/o a double kiss. Especially if you have more then half a CB's distance between the CB and 8ball. Any closer proximity and I would be thinking of the snap shot.
ez
ez
Just think about it a second:
The nose of the cushion is 1.4 inches above the surface (WPA specs), so the top of the rail is even higher - let's be generous and say it's only 1.65 inches above the surface (only 1/4 inch higher than the cushion nose), although this is unrealistically low. That's more than 1/2 inch above centerball, right at or even above the miscue limit. So with only the tip resting on the top of this optimistically low rail, the bottom edge of the tip is already at or above the miscue limit. With any thicker part of the cue over the rail (as is always the case), it's even higher and the problem is even worse.
I'd be interested to know how you think you can tilt the tip upward from that position (as you'd need to in order to "hit upward") and not miscue. It's simply physically impossible. I don't know what you're actually doing when you think you're stroking upward at the cue ball, but it's not stroking upward.
Frankly, I don't think it's really possible even with the cue ball more than five feet from the rail (the distance you need to get the cue off the rail), even if you could reach that shot and stroke it without putting your fingers under the butt.
pj
chgo
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Ditto.
pj
chgo
Neil said:
Correct me if I'm wrong. The method for close follow you suggested requires you to use your muscles to stop the cue before the double hit can occur. My suggestion was to accelerate the cue until you run out of follow through either by hitting your chest or by being at the forward limit of your stroke.
Stopping the cue requires tension in your muscles. You must apply this tension as the cue is moving forward, and most likely before contact with the cue ball. This tension can drive your cue off line during the stroke causing misalignment at contact.
One can be sucessful with your technique, but it's inconsistency is risky. I try to advocate simple methods that provide consistency and accuracy, and are reliable.
Patrick Johnson said:
I see your logic and understand what you are saying regarding measurements. I am just sharing another way to get the cue down table for the posted example. It's a shot I am comfy with and maybe I am not explaining it the best I can compared to actually demonstrating it but just giving a suggestion on another way to get the CB down table. It's not the snap stroke as mentioned, it's closer to a normal full stroke as I stroke thru the top of the CB making sort of a sweeping upward arch with my cue. But it gets the CB down table.
There are alot of shots that if explained in the words of the shooter may sound impossible but when we see it shot, it makes sense then. All I am trying to do is share experience-with words.
ez