Shorter races+more luck = larger payouts

cleary · Jun 7, 2013

I wonder if more players would show up and put in their $500 entry if they felt they had a better chance to win. Major tournaments, the races are normally to 9 or 10. The longer the race, the better player will normally win. A short stop isn't going to beat a pro as often in a race to 9. But they might in a race to 5.

I'm wondering how many players and above would show up to a tournament that's double elimination, race to 5. $500 entry on a bar box with $500,000 guaranteed payout.

This is just hypothetical, im not planning an event, but I wonder if lower skilled players such as A/B players, open players and lower level pros would take a shot at the money as a race to 5 on a barbox, reaaaaaaally is an equalizer and even a banger feels like a pro.

I was looking at the WSOP and I think this is why the payouts are so huge with them. Everyone feels they have a shot so people take a chance.

The Renfro · Jun 7, 2013

Could work... Race to 1 8Ball with 21balls... Diamond Barboxes with League and not pro pockets..... $1000 entry...... IF someone breaks and runs out you get the chance to match them..... Would put some serious pressure on all levels with the pros winning odds being the best but having dark horse winners come in out of the blue just like Poker.......

Could do a buyback format with 1 buyback.......

Might be just what the doctor ordered...

Chris

Needing weight · Jun 7, 2013

I'm an A player, a shortstop, hardly a favorite in my local Tuesday 8ball tourney.

I would absolutely show up and pay 500.00 for what you described!

ctyhntr · Jun 7, 2013

Longer races favor skill, while shorter races have more luck. I think your idea has merit. Stay with 8-ball, it may bring out enough players who believe they have an equal or better chance at the money, and make the funding structure feasible.

On the money side, in a 4 player format, the winner gets paid 1/2 and spot in the next 4 player round. The rest of the money goes up to fund the next round. In the next round, add another game to the race. So, the further up you go, the longer the race.

TheMadScientist · Jun 7, 2013

Bar table 8 ball maybe.

I would rather see a big guaranteed one pocket tournament.

cleary · Jun 7, 2013

The Renfro said:
Could work... Race to 1 8Ball with 21balls... Diamond Barboxes with League and not pro pockets..... $1000 entry...... IF someone breaks and runs out you get the chance to match them..... Would put some serious pressure on all levels with the pros winning odds being the best but having dark horse winners come in out of the blue just like Poker.......

Could do a buyback format with 1 buyback.......

Might be just what the doctor ordered...

Chris

$1000 I think the entry would be too high. 500 might be too. The idea is to get more players and make them all feel like the have a shot. The cream will still rise but nobody is stealing and unexpected names can win.

trustyrusty · Jun 7, 2013

$500,000 dollar payout and a $500 entry fee, huh? A/B players might as well light 5 hundos on fire instead....Why would they play?!

I don't know if this is the case for many, but I will play in lots of tourneys that I have very little chance of cashing in (so, the payouts don't really matter). I can't imagine dropping $500 entry for 1 tourney. I enjoy pool, have $500 to spend on recreation, and can even tolerate the waiting and drama of pool tournaments, but certainly wouldn't. I could probably play the 3 best golf courses in my state for that, get MUCH more enjoyment from it, and have ZERO chance of recouping any of my initial investment.

I just have a tough time believing folks who may not have much disposable income would be willing to throw down that much cash at an extremely small chance of winning even some of it back....especially if I wouldn't and could just blow it off as entertainment. But, what do I know, I see folks putting 20 after 20 into video machines and getting excited "winning" $100 after donating $300-$400...lol

cleary · Jun 7, 2013

trustyrusty said:
$500,000 dollar payout and a $500 entry fee, huh? A/B players might as well light 5 hundos on fire instead....Why would they play?!

In a race to 5, anyone who runs out can beat anyone who runs out on a bar box. An A player can run the set out, why does that equal lighting their money on fire?

I'm not an A player and I've beat pro level players, even in a short race tournaments.

trustyrusty · Jun 7, 2013

cleary said:
In a race to 5, anyone who runs out can beat anyone who runs out on a bar box. An A player can run the set out, why does that equal lighting their money on fire?

I'm not an A player and I've beat pro level players, even in a short race tournaments.

If it's winner breaks (running the set out), and a race to 5, the A player has an even smaller chance of cashing, so, YES, that does equal lighting their money on fire. First off, the number of A players plunking down 5 bills to play against pros will be LOW. Maybe they can beat a pro or 2....they WILL NOT cash. Luck can only take you so far....

cleary · Jun 7, 2013

trustyrusty said:
If it's winner breaks (running the set out), and a race to 5, the A player has an even smaller chance of cashing, so, YES, that does equal lighting their money on fire. First off, the number of A players plunking down 5 bills to play against pros will be LOW. Maybe they can beat a pro or 2....they WILL NOT cash. Luck can only take you so far....

First off I really disagree, but that's the point of the discussion.

Anyone can win the sets. Maybe 500 is too high but surely the short races equalize the set and change the odds to only sightless favor one side.

Aside from that, say 1000 people showed up to win 500k, maybe 250 of the 1000 would be pro. And maybe half the pros would cash. It's luck of the draw. I really think a lot of people would take a shot with a shorter race and more luck.

cleary · Jun 7, 2013

Tournements like the million dollar challenge ect have tried to raise the entry to bulk the purse, but I think if there is a way to increase the players and they feel they have a chance, prize money could increase a WHOLE LOT.

trustyrusty · Jun 7, 2013

cleary said:
Tournements like the million dollar challenge ect have tried to raise the entry to bulk the purse, but I think if there is a way to increase the players and they feel they have a chance, prize money could increase a WHOLE LOT.

What ya really need is more idiots like me, never cashed in ANYTHING outside of a local tourney, but just want to compete.....prize money? hmmmmph, whatever.

I hope to draw Alex, Shane, or someone like that in the 1st round of the Derby 1P - lol

doublej487 · Jun 7, 2013

cleary said:
I wonder if more players would show up and put in their $500 entry if they felt they had a better chance to win. Major tournaments, the races are normally to 9 or 10. The longer the race, the better player will normally win. A short stop isn't going to beat a pro as often in a race to 9. But they might in a race to 5.

I'm wondering how many players and above would show up to a tournament that's double elimination, race to 5. $500 entry on a bar box with $500,000 guaranteed payout.

This is just hypothetical, im not planning an event, but I wonder if lower skilled players such as A/B players, open players and lower level pros would take a shot at the money as a race to 5 on a barbox, reaaaaaaally is an equalizer and even a banger feels like a pro.

I was looking at the WSOP and I think this is why the payouts are so huge with them. Everyone feels they have a shot so people take a chance.

Get it going ill step up barbox 9ball race to three Ill dish out work

realkingcobra · Jun 7, 2013

cleary said:
Tournements like the million dollar challenge ect have tried to raise the entry to bulk the purse, but I think if there is a way to increase the players and they feel they have a chance, prize money could increase a WHOLE LOT.

Why not just make it a race to one, single elimination...since what you're really saying is lets handicap the better players and give "us" short stops a chance to win by lowering the number of games we play, or hell...why not just flip quarters for winners...two out of three wins

bankoutallday · Jun 7, 2013

Why not just exclude top level players?

If you want a high paying amateur event just exclude top players and play? The top 5-10% of players win 90% of the cash and always will, If you want a mega tournament with big numbers entering you need the type of game you are talking about and no pro level players. Something like this could be huge and run alongside pro events. If a regular guy could win 10,000 or so it would be an amazing thing. I would gladly pay $500 entry to compete for that type of cash. 128 players x $500 equals $64,000.

tommyceilings · Jun 7, 2013

I like your thought process Cleary.

I often wondered if there was a large place rented out and for 30 days there were all kinds of tournaments, but the catch is that every tournament and match is a race to one, single elimination.

Make them $20 $50, $100, it doesn't matter, but you can do a lot of them in the period of a month. As equal of a base as you can ask for. Think of 1000 people entering a race to 1 9 ball on a bar box, where the end payout is $10k for first or something like that.

cleary · Jun 7, 2013

bankoutallday said:
If you want a high paying amateur event just exclude top players and play? The top 5-10% of players win 90% of the cash and always will, If you want a mega tournament with big numbers entering you need the type of game you are talking about and no pro level players. Something like this could be huge and run alongside pro events. If a regular guy could win 10,000 or so it would be an amazing thing. I would gladly pay $500 entry to compete for that type of cash. 128 players x $500 equals $64,000.

I don't think you need to exclude anyone. With a short race, if anything, the pros would dislike it. The pros want long races with call shot/call safe 10ball... basically, they want a lock that no AM can beat them. Well, I say take that away. That might be fine for Pro tournaments, but for a major open tournament, I wanna see where anyone who can run out has a shot. Just like the WSOP, anyone who thinks they can get the right rolls will put their money down and play. The more players, the higher the payout. The higher the guaranteed money, the more show up.

terminal_288 · Jun 7, 2013

I like the sounds of it. I think we need less tournaments that exclude people, and more that try to get more people out to play.

CJ Wiley · Jun 7, 2013

all this "skill" involved in pool is shrinking the field size

realkingcobra said:
Why not just make it a race to one, single elimination...since what you're really saying is lets handicap the better players and give "us" short stops a chance to win by lowering the number of games we play, or hell...why not just flip quarters for winners...two out of three wins

Yes, that's a great idea, all this "skill" involved in pool is shrinking the field size. Race to one, lag for the break, winner of the lag flips a quarter and the winner of the coin flip goes to the next round. The final is the same, except it's two out of three coin flips to decide the Champion.

This would be like "rack your own" on a bar table with a magical rack.....only more fun to watch.

JB Cases · Jun 7, 2013

cleary said:
I don't think you need to exclude anyone. With a short race, if anything, the pros would dislike it. The pros want long races with call shot/call safe 10ball... basically, they want a lock that no AM can beat them. Well, I say take that away. That might be fine for Pro tournaments, but for a major open tournament, I wanna see where anyone who can run out has a shot. Just like the WSOP, anyone who thinks they can get the right rolls will put their money down and play. The more players, the higher the payout. The higher the guaranteed money, the more show up.

I don't know if this counts http://www.hardbatclassic.com/

But in Las Vegas next to the BCA Expo one year they were having some kind of ping pong event which was handicapped so anyone could play and first place was a huge amount of money and I think that there was a million dollars in the prize fund.

I don't know if it was this event I linked to but my thought on it is if the prize is big enough then there will certainly be plenty of people coming out of the woodwork to take a run at at it. If it's races to three or five I would think a lot of players my speed might feel emboldened to see how far they could get.

And they do their graphics like you Cleary - right up your alley. ;-)

Shorter races+more luck = larger payouts

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