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08-15-2014, 02:20 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
That sounds goofy. If the thumb touches the cue it is applying pressure. Do these savants recommend not touching the cue with the thumb? I know someone who recommends laying the thumb on the top of the cue. Would that work as well?

For the vast majority of top players the thumb is an essential part of the grip.
I'm not an instructor and I'm mediocre player at best but I am an avid reader of the snooker forum (TSF) because I want to learn the game and I am sure it has been mentioned by acclaimed instructors ( Nic Barrow, Terry Davidson) that the thumb should apply no pressure. From what I remember they actually claim that the thumb should sort of lightly touch the forefinger, rather than cue stick.

I myself struggle with grip and when I use the thumb in my cue action, the "ring" feels tighter comparing to 'only forefinger grip'. But I am obviously doing something wrong.
  
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08-15-2014, 02:39 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
That sounds goofy. If the thumb touches the cue it is applying pressure. Do these savants recommend not touching the cue with the thumb? I know someone who recommends laying the thumb on the top of the cue. Would that work as well?

For the vast majority of top players the thumb is an essential part of the grip.
I have studied many top players. Many of them leave the thumb off the cue on the final stroke. And you can only hear the sound of the cue when the tip contacts the cue ball. They have "pure strokes". Efren Reyes is one of them. If someone thinks Efren uses his thumb he should pay close attention because he is wrong.

I can't say Cj is wrong. He has played the game at top level and his grip works really well.

But when I hear from other guys who they don't know or understand what I am talking about, this is very sad.

The position of the thumb can make a huge difference in someone's grip and stroke. You have to try everything and see what works. Footwork and shoulders also play their role to position the body correctly and allow for a smooth stroke.
  
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08-15-2014, 02:59 PM

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Originally Posted by FranCrimi View Post
You mean like a "Come up and see me sometime" kind of shoulder rotation?

Sorry, couldn't resist. I don't know who you are but I'll tell you a little about myself. I played on the women's pro tour for some 20 years. In later years I've had top 10 finishes on tour and a ranking in the top 16. My rank in earlier years at one point was as high as 5th. I studied the game for years and years and I've taught the game for a few decades now.

My research never led me to such a correlation between the right thumb and left shoulder. However, I am open to new and interesting information, so please, if you have definitive proof of this relationship, please post it, and your name as well as your experience in researching the game.

See, I'm a big believer in that whatever you discover, or uncover, it must work under pressure or it is of little or no value. Plus, if you're going to throw out theories in the ask the instructor section, you should be prepared to be challenged.
This is an example of what I "discover" or "uncover". And throw out some theories.... I didn't know "instructors" have the right to insult other players and students of the game. Really disrespectful.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8DYDMMw5TtE

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08-15-2014, 05:13 PM

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Originally Posted by ps611846 View Post
This is an example of what I "discover" or "uncover". And throw out some theories.... I didn't know "instructors" have the right to insult other players and students of the game. Really disrespectful.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8DYDMMw5TtE
This is the ask the instructor forum. You are the one being disrespectful. You're not even an instructor and you gave advice in recommending a left shoulder adjustment in a thread asking about gripping with the thumb, and you have yet to explain why you recommended it. This is the kind of thing that messes up players' games and you don't even have the credentials to be accountable for what you suggest.


No accountability. Now aren't you the lucky one?

You may think I'm mean but I'm defending the players who come here asking questions. When they ask questions to instructors, they expect and deserve answers from people who are accountable for what they recommend.

You've got the main forum to be as unaccountable as you like.

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08-15-2014, 05:17 PM

editing .......

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08-15-2014, 05:25 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
That sounds goofy. If the thumb touches the cue it is applying pressure. Do these savants recommend not touching the cue with the thumb? I know someone who recommends laying the thumb on the top of the cue. Would that work as well?

For the vast majority of top players the thumb is an essential part of the grip.
How essential is it? What would happen if it didn't touch the cue?
  
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08-15-2014, 09:38 PM

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Originally Posted by FranCrimi View Post
How essential is it? What would happen if it didn't touch the cue?
It may not touch the cue at all but in pretty much all of the grips I've seen it provides pressure from the body side against either the fingers that wrap around the cue or the cue itself.

Suppose you covered the thumb with talc. How many players would end up with talc on either the tips of the fingers that wrap around the cue or the cue itself. I imagine nearly all of them including Efren.

I think there are very few players (and none that I know of) that grip the cue with a finger-only cradle. I'm not saying it's impossible to play that way or even that no one can run out with that way -- I just don't think anyone does.


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08-15-2014, 11:12 PM

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Originally Posted by FranCrimi View Post
This is the ask the instructor forum. You are the one being disrespectful. You're not even an instructor and you gave advice in recommending a left shoulder adjustment in a thread asking about gripping with the thumb, and you have yet to explain why you recommended it. This is the kind of thing that messes up players' games and you don't even have the credentials to be accountable for what you suggest.


No accountability. Now aren't you the lucky one?

You may think I'm mean but I'm defending the players who come here asking questions. When they ask questions to instructors, they expect and deserve answers from people who are accountable for what they recommend.

You've got the main forum to be as unaccountable as you like.
So, the "ask the instructor" is something like let's say : "The Inquisition of the instructors" ??? Will I get BURNT know for not noticing when I first posted? I am not an instructor but I want to help and I like open minded pool players. Not "disrespectful amateurs" who think the can insult everyone.

Hope when you teach kids you don't have this kind of attitude.

You are disrespectful and you didn't even notice that you insulted me and you were laughing at what I posted.

You could only suggest that I should leave "the Inquisition of the instructors" before I get burnt. Sorry for stepping in your "sacred section".

Keep on you hard work in teaching people the secrets of pool.
  
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08-16-2014, 02:06 AM

I got the grip mostly from reading the snooker forum. If I'm using a soft shot, I'll backswing enough that I let my pinkie uncurl and then follow through. Medium shots are pinkie and ring finger, and harder shots are pinkie, through to middle finger. After I'm fully back-swung, I make a sort of swinging motion that returns all of the x number of digits back to my cue butt. I really like the speed control and accuracy it gives me (as well as more than sufficient power), but it feels weird cause I feel like I'm not doing much. I feel like I'm just loosely opening and closing my hand around the cue. My bridge length is about 4-5 inches, with 7-8 inches total if you include follow through on the harder shots.

I also have a problem with a "hanging elbow" No matter how hard I try, I can't get it to line up over my cue unless I strain myself trying to pin it back (an action I can only do once I'm down on the shot and I have to consciously tense up and try and lock it back. I've tried pivoting every which way, and short of standing almost completely sideways to the shot-line, I haven't found a way of doing it comfortably.

Edit: Nvm, just figured it out, wasn't spreading out my non-lead foot far enough out to the side. It's not perfect, but it's much better

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08-16-2014, 04:55 AM

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Originally Posted by ps611846 View Post
So, the "ask the instructor" is something like let's say : "The Inquisition of the instructors" ??? Will I get BURNT know for not noticing when I first posted? I am not an instructor but I want to help and I like open minded pool players. Not "disrespectful amateurs" who think the can insult everyone.

Hope when you teach kids you don't have this kind of attitude.

You are disrespectful and you didn't even notice that you insulted me and you were laughing at what I posted.

You could only suggest that I should leave "the Inquisition of the instructors" before I get burnt. Sorry for stepping in your "sacred section".

Keep on you hard work in teaching people the secrets of pool.
.....And yet this poster STILL doesn't explain why he suggested a left shoulder adjustment in a thread where a player asked for help regarding his grip.

I hope the folks out there reading this keep in mind to be cautious about taking advice from people who are unaccountable for what they say.

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08-16-2014, 05:15 AM

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Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
It may not touch the cue at all but in pretty much all of the grips I've seen it provides pressure from the body side against either the fingers that wrap around the cue or the cue itself.

Suppose you covered the thumb with talc. How many players would end up with talc on either the tips of the fingers that wrap around the cue or the cue itself. I imagine nearly all of them including Efren.

I think there are very few players (and none that I know of) that grip the cue with a finger-only cradle. I'm not saying it's impossible to play that way or even that no one can run out with that way -- I just don't think anyone does.
I agree. But I think the main issue to consider is the amount of pressure applied with the thumb and index finger compared with the pressure of other fingers. That's where I found that styles differ vastly.

Even though pressure points change automatically to some degree as the arm moves through the stroke, there are players who favor consistent harder pressure with the thumb and index finger on the cue all the way through --- some to the point where the back 2-3 fingers are lifted off the cue.

The other school of thought is the opposite, with the lightest grip on the front two fingers with the pinkie remaining on the cue as an anchor.

As I have written before in other threads, I have found that many amateur players will tend to twist the cue with the front two fingers, causing missed shots. As an exercise, I encouraged those players I've worked with to remove the thumb and second finger completely, and they will see how much less they twist the cue. Then after a considerable number of shots in that manner, place the thumb and index finger back on the cue with much less pressure, so that the thumb and index finger release naturally in the follow through as the arm moves forward.

So when someone writes or talks about gripping the cue with the first two fingers, I kind of expect what path they're headed down, and it's probably not a good one.

Last edited by FranCrimi; 08-16-2014 at 05:38 AM.
  
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08-16-2014, 11:24 AM

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Originally Posted by FranCrimi View Post
.....And yet this poster STILL doesn't explain why he suggested a left shoulder adjustment in a thread where a player asked for help regarding his grip.

I hope the folks out there reading this keep in mind to be cautious about taking advice from people who are unaccountable for what they say.
You are using the word adjustment. All I wanted to say that the player must not be "lazy" with his left shoulder. He has to find the position that works for him. And if this happens, it will lead him to a better grip and a smooth stroke. You don't agree with my opinion, I am ok with this. No problem.

No comments from you on the three players I mentioned and their left shoulder. I can mention others who play with their left shoulder open. The grip doesn't only have to do with the stroking arm, hand and fingers. Other parts of the body can make a difference.

This is my last unaccountable post in the "inquisition of the instructors" section. It was my mistake to post here. You have the right to say anything you wish. You are the instructor. And a pro pool player of course. I am nobody.

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08-16-2014, 12:20 PM

So getting back to the grip...i believe it doesn't matter how you hold it, whether the thumb is on top or side of the cue...i once knew an old guy that had lost his thumb in an accident and he played pretty decent.

For me, my grip is what you would call a standard snooker grip. The cue rests in the groove on my thumb between both knuckles and the fleshy pad of the biggest knuckle of the index finger and the rest of the fingers just wrap around. It puts the cue snug in the webbing of the thumb and that stays in contact with the cue at all times which I feel is vitally important. As I move back the hand my index and thumb apply a squeezing pressure at the sides of the cue and all 4 fingers relax and come away from the underneath the cue. On exaggerated draw backs my fingers are all straight, together and off the cue with the cue staying in my hand purely from squeezing the thumb into the hand.

And I also believe the grip pressure should be light to firm. You don't want to throttle the cue.
  
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08-16-2014, 12:22 PM

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Originally Posted by BilliardsAbout View Post
I agree with CJ. You need to have somewhere between a cradle with all the fingers and a firmer grip. The palm smacking action you have may indicate you are making the wrong wrist movement/direction with the forward stroke. Have an instructor look at your stroke and stance. Once you have a perfect stroke and stance you can be confident with a very light grip as well.
After analyzing it further, it's less of a smack, and more of an issue of "running out of real estate"

I've run out of room to swing the cue in my palm, as well as there is no more room left for my forearm to bend in, and my hand has also hit my left man-boob (I'm a lefty).

I'm using a snooker stance with the four contact points of bridge, chin, chest, and grip. And I'm noticing that my follow through is about 30% less then my bridge length.
  
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08-18-2014, 05:49 AM

I teach golf also and the thumb/forefinger pinch "activates" the part of the forearm that faces the aim line when you stroke. Lee Brett explains why he thinks it is helpful on his DVD. Some players do well that way. I personally don't put extra pressure or soften pressure with my thumb and forefinger.


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