Championship's Master Installer Certification Course

PoolTable911

AdvancedBilliardSolutions
Silver Member
Pool Table 911 is pleased to announce we willbe hosting Championship's Master Installer Certification Course here in Beach Haven, NJ. The course is free and will be held 10/13/16 at 8:30am. It is a very informative class for both novice & experienced Installers. Ideas & techniques will be shared among the group. Any questions please call or write.
 

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realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
Is someone going to be showing how to correctly stretch index the cloth for correct tightness and straightness of the grain of cloth when installing the cloth.....or is this another course on pull until tight, staple there class?
 

PoolTable911

AdvancedBilliardSolutions
Silver Member
Is someone going to be showing how to correctly stretch index the cloth for correct tightness and straightness of the grain of cloth when installing the cloth.....or is this another course on pull until tight, staple there class?

Glenn...Glenn...Glenn...Do you really think that Oscar & I would not show the proper way to stretch index the cloth? :cool::thumbup:
 

ROB.M

:)
Silver Member
Seminar

Does that say free food! You know how us guys can eat....


Go get em pat!






Rob.M
 

realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
Glenn...Glenn...Glenn...Do you really think that Oscar & I would not show the proper way to stretch index the cloth? :cool::thumbup:

Finally......someone will show Mike and Fred how to correctly install their OWN brand of cloth the RIGHT way, it's about time, make me proud Pat...LOL
 
Pool Table 911 is pleased to announce we willbe hosting Championship's Master Installer Certification Course here in Beach Haven, NJ. The course is free and will be held 10/13/16 at 8:30am. It is a very informative class for both novice & experienced Installers. Ideas & techniques will be shared among the group. Any questions please call or write.

Pat....that's a great thing Championship is offering.....you and Oscar are offering to help people learn new things...... knowledge for free to anyone wanting to learn about Championship cloth.
Fred and Mike won't find 2 better guys to help out with Championship cloth.

Plus....everyone gets free rail bags and other gifts....free food for all that attend.
Now.....who would say anything bad about that?

If you guys want to bring the show to Atlanta......I will help out with anything y'all need help with....wish I could make the trip....but I'm just to busy.
Hope everything works out.
More classes on table mechanics and cloth need to be offered.

Mark Gregory
 

bradsh98

Bradshaw Billiard Service
Silver Member
That's great news Pat!

My partner, Leon, and I will plan to make the 5 hour drive.
 

rackemfr9ball

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
To Glen and all other Installers,

This is Fred Cohen the President of Championship responding to the posts below so please do not take this out on Bill Dunne.

As one of the owners of Championship I feel I should set the record straight and that has been the main purpose of all these Installers training classes we've put on.

There are so many rumors and misunderstandings out there about billiard cloth and it varies from manufacturer to manufacturer. The rumors start from uneducated folks in the field and lets face it, no one got a college degree in billiard cloth or installation so its nice once in a while for the manufacturer to take interest in its customer base and try to dispel any bad rumors and explain what the truth is about their products.

Competitors can say or do what they want too but the manufacturer can explain why things are done the way they are.

We take this opportunity to bring together like minds and see what people are thinking, we do not teach the installation portion ourselves, we teach the product portion since that is our expertise.

We have hired installer from the field to bring their ideas to the classes and we comment on the rumor or misunderstandings of installation as it pertains to the construction of the cloth.

I'm sorry we did not hire you to do our Video and that might upset you but we do not have a video for a very good reason. We are not trying to create more competition for guys out there like yourself but rather support those that take a sincere interest in bettering their craft or trade.

WE are not looking for more DYI guys but for better trained Installation Specialilist that have a factory representative teach them the proper things about our product and how and why its made that way.

Again, I apologize for not hiring you for your project idea but it did not match our company mantra.

This class does and it has been very effective for all those that attended, just ask them all. I'm sure all the free gifts and things have helped them decide it was not a waste of their time.

But please make sure you know that both Fred and Mike do not teach the class about stretch and installation and I suggest you don't teach the class of cloth construction or content of yarn fibers.

Seems its a perfect match when the Factory takes the time to spend with its most important handlers to see how we can support them and help them better.

Feel free to come to a class and learn something new and more to make you a better informed Billiard Industry Leader. Leaders Lead and Championship is always going to do the right thing to maintain its Leadership Position.
 

realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
To Glen and all other Installers,

This is Fred Cohen the President of Championship responding to the posts below so please do not take this out on Bill Dunne.

As one of the owners of Championship I feel I should set the record straight and that has been the main purpose of all these Installers training classes we've put on.

There are so many rumors and misunderstandings out there about billiard cloth and it varies from manufacturer to manufacturer. The rumors start from uneducated folks in the field and lets face it, no one got a college degree in billiard cloth or installation so its nice once in a while for the manufacturer to take interest in its customer base and try to dispel any bad rumors and explain what the truth is about their products.

Competitors can say or do what they want too but the manufacturer can explain why things are done the way they are.

We take this opportunity to bring together like minds and see what people are thinking, we do not teach the installation portion ourselves, we teach the product portion since that is our expertise.

We have hired installer from the field to bring their ideas to the classes and we comment on the rumor or misunderstandings of installation as it pertains to the construction of the cloth.

I'm sorry we did not hire you to do our Video and that might upset you but we do not have a video for a very good reason. We are not trying to create more competition for guys out there like yourself but rather support those that take a sincere interest in bettering their craft or trade.

WE are not looking for more DYI guys but for better trained Installation Specialilist that have a factory representative teach them the proper things about our product and how and why its made that way.

Again, I apologize for not hiring you for your project idea but it did not match our company mantra.

This class does and it has been very effective for all those that attended, just ask them all. I'm sure all the free gifts and things have helped them decide it was not a waste of their time.

But please make sure you know that both Fred and Mike do not teach the class about stretch and installation and I suggest you don't teach the class of cloth construction or content of yarn fibers.

Seems its a perfect match when the Factory takes the time to spend with its most important handlers to see how we can support them and help them better.

Feel free to come to a class and learn something new and more to make you a better informed Billiard Industry Leader. Leaders Lead and Championship is always going to do the right thing to maintain its Leadership Position.

Fred, you're still talking sales, all them education degrees....and still can't install your own product correctly. You're like a salesman working for sears selling hand tools to auto mechanics...."we sell the best tools in the world so you can take apart ANY engine with ease.....don't ask us how to put it back together because we don't know how....that's the mechanics job, we just sell tools. We don't produce auto mechanics how to books....we just sell tools. WAIT a minute, that Glen had a GREAT IDEA when he ran the first training seminar ever...in an attempt to teach and improve the work of pool table mechanics....only, it was with Simonis cloth.....HEY, let's do the same thing Glen did....and Call it Championship installers course! Only, there's no one working at Championship that knows how to install their own product correctly.....like keeping the cloth grain straight so it don't influence balls to look like they're rolling off....well just tell everyone Championship cloth don't track the balls....and everyone will believe us....because after all, we're the manufacture...and we know best....and when pool table mechanics tell customers our cloth tracks the balls, we'll just deny it. I can walk up to almost any table with championship tour edition 3030 cloth on it and tell if the installer stretched it end to end first, or side to side first.....by which direction the cloth wrinkles when you slide the palm of your hand over it. Fred, there's more ways to judge cloth than by how many miscue nicks are in the cloth over the period of 2 years....like how lightening fast the tour edition cloth gets the more worn it is, it actually plays like shit when it's so damn fast.....BUT IT LOOKS GOOD, that's what you're really interested in saying.

No need to worry though Fred, I don't need your permission to make Championship cloth installation DVDS to show installers AND DIY customers how to install your manufactured line of cloths.....I'll just title them....How to install Championship cloth, what the factory didn't know how to show you:thumbup:
 

Ralph Kramden

BOOM!.. ZOOM!.. MOON!
Silver Member
Fred, you're still talking sales, all them education degrees....and still can't install your own product correctly. You're like a salesman working for sears selling hand tools to auto mechanics...."we sell the best tools in the world so you can take apart ANY engine with ease.....don't ask us how to put it back together because we don't know how....that's the mechanics job, we just sell tools. We don't produce auto mechanics how to books....we just sell tools. WAIT a minute, that Glen had a GREAT IDEA when he ran the first training seminar ever...in an attempt to teach and improve the work of pool table mechanics....only, it was with Simonis cloth.....HEY, let's do the same thing Glen did....and Call it Championship installers course! Only, there's no one working at Championship that knows how to install their own product correctly.....like keeping the cloth grain straight so it don't influence balls to look like they're rolling off....well just tell everyone Championship cloth don't track the balls....and everyone will believe us....because after all, we're the manufacture...and we know best....and when pool table mechanics tell customers our cloth tracks the balls, we'll just deny it. I can walk up to almost any table with championship tour edition 3030 cloth on it and tell if the installer stretched it end to end first, or side to side first.....by which direction the cloth wrinkles when you slide the palm of your hand over it. Fred, there's more ways to judge cloth than by how many miscue nicks are in the cloth over the period of 2 years....like how lightening fast the tour edition cloth gets the more worn it is, it actually plays like shit when it's so damn fast.....BUT IT LOOKS GOOD, that's what you're really interested in saying.

No need to worry though Fred, I don't need your permission to make Championship cloth installation DVDS to show installers AND DIY customers how to install your manufactured line of cloths.....I'll just title them....How to install Championship cloth, what the factory didn't know how to show you:thumbup:

Sounds like a 1804 rematch between Arron Burr and Alexander Hamilton... Break out those dueling pistols. :eek:

.
 

rackemfr9ball

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Glen,

Since we have never met before and I'm not sure about your education or accomplishments either in business or life, I will leave our conversation to the matters at hand and I think based on your writing style, you should stay away from the education business.

I want to clarify your response so at least they are accurate with facts and not just your opinions.

First, I'm not talking sales at all, I'm talking technical facts about a product and its attributes to how it will be used and applied. Remember we are not a one trick pony at Championship, we make both Worsted and Woolen style cloth and we sell to all segments of our industry and that include the Coin Op market which has completely different needs than the Home or Commercial.

There is a tremendous amount to be learned from the construction of the cloth. Perhaps the same way Sears makes Craftsman tools to feel a certain way in the hand of a mechanic, well so does Mac Tools and Snap on and they all feel different in the mechanics hands yet they all can be used to work on cars. It takes the manufacturer to explain why they designed their tools that way. How they are used is up to the mechanic. We are educating mechanics or how our product will react to their tools or hands when its installed.

BTW. we sell the longest lasting cloth and it plays extremely well throughout its extended life, something our competition cannot boast about, certaintly not two years later. Thanks for the back handed durability comment.

On the subject of being the first guy to do something, congratulations but Al Conte was doing these seminars before you got out of diapers and he never needed to take credit for HIS idea. Championship is trying to offer our most important relationship, the installer, a chance to spend time with factory representatives and fellow installers to help dispel some bad rumors that guys like you present. I would expect anything that comes from you to be the gospel about Simonis or Diamond but how can you be an expert on Championship when you've never met us or asked a single question about our cloth or its attributes. Even doctors take additional education classes when new procedures or drugs hit the market. That's what this is all about, educating our customers about our products attributes.

I do not need an installer on my staff, I need experts on my product and guys that can help the installers when they need answers or advice. We connect them to other professionals in the field. We use some of those professionals to teach our hands on portion of the class. I would think that Mike Serra would take some exception to your comments about installation the same I would if you spoke to me about yarn size and denier or picks and ends.

We teach these classes so we can get all installers on the same page about installations. End to end or side to side is something that Championship is not responsible for but we are trying to set the industry in the right direction on our products.
The fact that you make statements like you did, only shows me what you want to impress me with your knowledge of our product. Did you gain that knowledge by attending our class? No so its all your opinions now or its what you want to show off to your friends about. Gain some real knowledge from those that built it and then get your facts straight,

The fact that you see bad installs in the market to criticize is the exact reason we spend so much time and money to travel the country and help installers. I guess that Sales again. Thanks to our efforts, our sales have put us at the top of the cloth food chain in our markets.

Its great to have your name on tables and tournaments but its even better to meet and teach those that use your product how its made and why.

I'm sure when others follow, we will not be bragging that we were first or second but rather excited that others are doing something positive for our industries most important liaison which is the installer.

How long something lasts and how well something plays is up to the room owner and not our opinion again.

I think you might want to check with your educated friends before you publish your next video disparaging our name or product. Just some advice from an educated and experienced business man with no formal sales training.
 
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realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
Glen,

Since we have never met before and I'm not sure about your education or accomplishments either in business or life, I will leave our conversation to the matters at hand and I think based on your writing style, you should stay away from the education business.

I want to clarify your response so at least they are accurate with facts and not just your opinions.

First, I'm not talking sales at all, I'm talking technical facts about a product and its attributes to how it will be used and applied. Remember we are not a one trick pony at Championship, we make both Worsted and Woolen style cloth and we sell to all segments of our industry and that include the Coin Op market which has completely different needs than the Home or Commercial.

There is a tremendous amount to be learned from the construction of the cloth. Perhaps the same way Sears makes Craftsman tools to feel a certain way in the hand of a mechanic, well so does Mac Tools and Snap on and they all feel different in the mechanics hands yet they all can be used to work on cars. It takes the manufacturer to explain why they designed their tools that way. How they are used is up to the mechanic. We are educating mechanics or how our product will react to their tools or hands when its installed.

BTW. we sell the longest lasting cloth and it plays extremely well throughout its extended life, something our competition cannot boast about, certaintly not two years later. Thanks for the back handed durability comment.

On the subject of being the first guy to do something, congratulations but Al Conte was doing these seminars before you got out of diapers and he never needed to take credit for HIS idea. Championship is trying to offer our most important relationship, the installer, a chance to spend time with factory representatives and fellow installers to help dispel some bad rumors that guys like you present. I would expect anything that comes from you to be the gospel about Simonis or Diamond but how can you be an expert on Championship when you've never met us or asked a single question about our cloth or its attributes. Even doctors take additional education classes when new procedures or drugs hit the market. That's what this is all about, educating our customers about our products attributes.

I do not need an installer on my staff, I need experts on my product and guys that can help the installers when they need answers or advice. We connect them to other professionals in the field. We use some of those professionals to teach our hands on portion of the class. I would think that Mike Serra would take some exception to your comments about installation the same I would if you spoke to me about yarn size and denier or picks and ends.

We teach these classes so we can get all installers on the same page about installations. End to end or side to side is something that Championship is not responsible for but we are trying to set the industry in the right direction on our products.
The fact that you make statements like you did, only shows me what you want to impress me with your knowledge of our product. Did you gain that knowledge by attending our class? No so its all your opinions now or its what you want to show off to your friends about. Gain some real knowledge from those that built it and then get your facts straight,

The fact that you see bad installs in the market to criticize is the exact reason we spend so much time and money to travel the country and help installers. I guess that Sales again. Thanks to our efforts, our sales have put us at the top of the cloth food chain in our markets.

Its great to have your name on tables and tournaments but its even better to meet and teach those that use your product how its made and why.

I'm sure when others follow, we will not be bragging that we were first or second but rather excited that others are doing something positive for our industries most important liaison which is the installer.

How long something lasts and how well something plays is up to the room owner and not our opinion again.

I think you might want to check with your educated friends before you publish your next video disparaging our name or product. Just some advice from an educated and experienced business man with no formal sales training.

You're right Fred, we've never met before, but if you wasn't so hung up on trying to PROMOTE your product line here on AZB and attack me personally and actually taken the time to find out something about me BEFORE you start t4ying to run me down.....you might have found out I've been in this lin3 of work for more than 33 years, so I'm NOT new to your line of cloth. I have even prompted your Titan grad3 of cloth as the best bar table cloth on thee market bar none. I turned down an intellectual contract offer from Simonis BECAUSE I refused to just show the world how to install their cloths only, because I'm aware of other other manufactures out there selling their cloths as well....so I kept my door open to be able to help business owners just like yourself when it comes to teaching installers how to install your product line as best as it can be done....correctly. Many if the installers that HAVE attended your course....HAVE reported back to me that the cloth installation portion is a joke....because what's being shown....can't be taught because there's no method to it. NO stretch indexing to insur3 the weave of the cloth remains straight, no teaching of my glue down method....which by the way is so fare past stapling the cloth down its a joke. Where in the past I would have helped you and you business to educate this industry even more.....I now challenge you to present ONE installer that can teach how to install your product line better, and more understandable than in can.....want to take that bet Fred?
 

Club Billiards

Absolute Billiard Service
Silver Member
Well that escalated quickly!!!

:-D

Seriously though, congrats, Pat. That's a big compliment to be teaching their course. I know you'll do it justice.
 

rackemfr9ball

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
You're right Fred, we've never met before, but if you wasn't so hung up on trying to PROMOTE your product line here on AZB and attack me personally and actually taken the time to find out something about me BEFORE you start t4ying to run me down.....you might have found out I've been in this lin3 of work for more than 33 years, so I'm NOT new to your line of cloth. I have even prompted your Titan grad3 of cloth as the best bar table cloth on thee market bar none. I turned down an intellectual contract offer from Simonis BECAUSE I refused to just show the world how to install their cloths only, because I'm aware of other other manufactures out there selling their cloths as well....so I kept my door open to be able to help business owners just like yourself when it comes to teaching installers how to install your product line as best as it can be done....correctly. Many if the installers that HAVE attended your course....HAVE reported back to me that the cloth installation portion is a joke....because what's being shown....can't be taught because there's no method to it. NO stretch indexing to insur3 the weave of the cloth remains straight, no teaching of my glue down method....which by the way is so fare past stapling the cloth down its a joke. Where in the past I would have helped you and you business to educate this industry even more.....I now challenge you to present ONE installer that can teach how to install your product line better, and more understandable than in can.....want to take that bet Fred?

Glen,
I don't want to keep responding to your posts but I want the facts to be straight. I did not use AZB to promote anything at all about our product. Someone used it to promote their Free Class for Installers which is being sponsored by Championship which we do for all our Distributors around the country.

Second, you are correct, we have never met. Third, follow your email thread and you will see plain and clear that I never wrote a thing until YOU questioned what Mike Serra and myself knew about our product.

So it is clear, I would not look up someone I don't know and I'm only responding to someone that has been in our Industry for 33 plus years and never walked up to the President of one of the major companies he uses and said hello or offered his services too. That might be a much better way to make friends in a very small industry with very few suppliers.

We all know there are many options when it comes to tables or cues but much more limited when it comes to cloth, so it would not be unreasonable for to have met in the past 33 years if your eyes and heart were wide open.

I'm sure those that attended our classes have nothing bad to say about what we said about our competition. We only talk about the truth.

When it comes to your challenge, that is also very subjective. What you think is great is in your mind and what others do is in theirs. I've met plenty of great installers with big ego's and small ego's, in the end, the customer and the table is king. Keep up the good stretch and take a breathe once in a while between your installs. Best of luck
 

realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
And Fred, just so you're aware....telling the world about how your cloth is made, how its different from other cloths....don't have a thing to do with the most important thing there is.....how does it look when it's installed because like you stated above....you're NOT responsible for how your cloth gets installed....pretty sad in my book, make a product and can't even install it . yourselves, but that's OK, neither could Simonis....or any other cloth manufacturer. And you sure do like saying "longest lasting" but have no comment when asked how your cloth holds up to the Simonis 860HR.....LOL
 

Club Billiards

Absolute Billiard Service
Silver Member
Ya think? Fred and Mike might LEARN something about how to install cloth the right way:thumbup:

Jordan and I actually did go to one of the early courses, and yes, at the time, the gentleman teaching the course did things differently than we do. He and the rest in attendance that day, including Fred, Mike, Bill, and the rest of the mechanics, installers, and Championship staff were very open minded to different methods. In fact, they started off the day by saying that they know there's no one "right" way to install cloth and if any of us had another method beside what they were teaching to feel welcome to share it and why we prefer it. At the end of the day, Fred and Mike both came up and personally thanked me for being such an active and vocal participant. I did think it was funny how those two visibly perked up when I mentioned that I index my cloth when I stretch it instead of the method their guy that day was using. Index. That one word put a smile on their face. Remember, they used to carry printed logo cloth, and that stuff was already indexed around the edges, so they're already familiar with the concept.

These guys get it. I would personally tweak a couple things about the course, but that's just me, and they were open to that feedback after the course. I've had the opportunity to work directly with you, I've learned from their class, and I've worked in the field every day, and learned from it all. We all come from different backgrounds and all have our own individual strengths, and I've said before that as individuals, we could all become stronger if we work better together as a whole. You are both at heart trying to better the industry and the expectation of quality as a whole. You're both coming from different directions toward the same goal.

That's my 2 cents anyway. Don't spend it all in one place.
 

PoolTable911

AdvancedBilliardSolutions
Silver Member
Full Class

What a great response we had for this class. We are full as of now. Thank you everyone for spreading the word. For those who had wished to attend we will are working on another class for early in 2017.:thumbup2:
 

PoolTable911

AdvancedBilliardSolutions
Silver Member
The class was a huge success. Thank you to all who participated. I would also like to thank Fred, Mike & Bill from Championship for allowing me to host this class. I really enjoyed meeting new installers and learned as much from them as they learned from us. Stay tuned for the next class at the Jersey Shore!
 
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