During the forward stroke motion to the follow through is cue to move down towards the table when you follow through? When I concentrate on performing a proper pendulum motion it feels like the cue is moving down toward the cue table and NOT "straight/level" thru the cue ball. Im a little confused because I read that you want the "cue level" as much as possible. Please explain... Thanks everyone...
Stroke motion during follow through
- Thread starter clarkie39
- Start date
Great question.
The cue tip should be level (to the table) at contact with the cue ball.
At contact the cue ball leaves in about 1/1000 of a second.
With a perfect pendulum stroke, in another small fraction of a second, your cue tip is starting to point down.
That's why we set our bridge and back hand properly to insure this perfect contact.
randyg
The cue tip should be level (to the table) at contact with the cue ball.
At contact the cue ball leaves in about 1/1000 of a second.
With a perfect pendulum stroke, in another small fraction of a second, your cue tip is starting to point down.
That's why we set our bridge and back hand properly to insure this perfect contact.
randyg
There is some explanation of that here:
http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/2004-02.pdf
and some discussion of actual players here:
http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/2004-03.pdf
The goal is to make your stroke as repeatable as possible. Keeping your stroking motion simple helps with that.
I have found that I can keep my elbow on constant plane without dropping it and still not perform a true pendulum motion because my wrist breakdowns down and throws the " cue forward and level" even AFTER contacting the cueball.. I might be using my shoulder in some way .. not sure .. Anyway, instead it should be pointing down to the table after contact. I know it sounds very obvious but it's not, in my mind. I've read about it but never had the feeling of what it truly feels like to perform a pendulum motion properly. I was using a piston style without realizing it..
A video of you will tell all.....
clarkie39...Keeping the cue level after contact with the OB offers nothing, in terms of affecting the outcome. It also complicates the natural pendulum swing, making the movement more difficult to repeat. Using a natural pendulum swing, with no elbow drop, and no involvement of the shoulder, will have the cue tip ending up on, nearly on, or slightly angled down, at the end of the natural finish. Which one depends on how low you stand over the cue, and how your arm works with your body. If you're looking for a video demonstation and explaination of this, get a copy of our video, Play Better Pool, Vol. 1; Mastering the Basics. You can get is directly from either randyg or myself, or purchase it from the usual online sources, including Amazon.com! If you're looking for some hands on instruction, PM me with your information. As mentioned, I travel coast to coast teaching full time.
Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
We know that players are not machines. Every time they pick up their cues, something slightly changes. With all the variables: grip, length of the butt, bridge length, even the way in which the bridge hand is positioned at the cb ----should we really be expecting players to be so perfect within a tiny fraction of a second?
I have found that there's a higher occurrence of a downward angle of attack at impact with what is referred to as a pendulum stroke much more often than with a stroke where the elbow is dropped prior to impact .
I'm not saying that this makes the rigid elbow stroke a bad stroke to use. But I think it's important to face the fact that we aren't perfect.
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Good question Fran
While the contact time is only about 1/1000 of a second the sweet spot is much larger.
At the bottom of our pendulum we have a level spot of 3-4 inches. It's within that sweet spot that we would like to past through the cue ball before our cue becomes biased.
randyg
Mr.G,
Can you explain how that 3 -4 inches is obtained. A true pendulum does NOT have that. The 'rod' in a pendulum is only moving perpendicular to gravity for an instant in time & for only ONE point along the arch.
I know the stroke is not truely like a gravity driven pendulum because human components are involved such as muscle tendons etc., but I do not see what you speak of.
I don't see 3-4 inches of Straight Tip Travel unless the elbow is allowed to drop.
In which case it would no longer be a pendulum stroke but more of a piston stroke or I think it is called a J-piston stroke.
Regards,
To tell you the truth, I always thought that the pendulum stroke was not pure pendulum. At best it might be a mini pendulum.
Call it whatever (not late for Supper) the goal is to become level at the contact position. This is a easy thing to achieve. After contact the tip is probably headed downward.
randyg
Why are you so hung up on the name of it? Everyone but you seems to understand exactly what it is. Yet, you have a problem because it is not exactly like a true pendulum. Do you also write Ford and tell them their "cougar" model looks nothing like a mountain lion? Or tell a 40+ yr. old woman picking up younger guys that she looks nothing like a car or a lion? Or cue builders telling them their straight cues are not really straight because they taper? Get over YOUR word problem already. Pendulum stroke is one way of stroking, piston stroke is another DIFFERENT way of stroking, J-Piston is yet ANOTHER way of stroking. Get it? They are DIFFERENT.
So, based on what you're saying, if the player makes contact with the cb at the beginning of the level spot of 3-4 inches, what happens with the rest of the swing? Does it continue level for the remaining 3-4 inches after impact?
I know they are different. But some people don't understand the real differences & there is much miscommuncation as references are made to certain peoples' strokes being a pendulum stroke & they are not. If information is going to be handed out, especially in a text format, & especially by certified instructors, I would think everyone would want that information to be as accurate as possible. I would not think anyone would want the information to be misleading.
Mr. G responded to Ms. Crimi that a 'pendulum' stroke has a 3-4 inch path where the cue is moving straight. IMHO that is not the case. He answered my question explaining the goal but with no explanation regarding that 3-4 inches of straightness nor how it is obtained with a 'pendulum' stroke. A mini pendulum makes no sense. The motion is the same. The size is dictated by the length of one's forearm. If the elbow is frozen in space, how does one get 3-4 inches of straight movement of the cue? The only way is by movement of the wrist, elbow, or combination of both. The wrist is limited in it's range of motion. If the wrist is to be used to obtain that 3-4 inches of straightness it requires a specific movement that would also require proper timing.
I don't care if you want to call it a 'Cougar' stroke as long as there is a true understanding of what it is & what it can accomplish & how.
Why are you so upset about my questioning aspects of the stroke? Is there some secret that's being hidden that might come out?
I agree with Ms Crimi. Why ask perfection of human beings when we are simply not capable of it. The longer one can get the cue to move in a straight line the more guard exsists against any error during contact. IMHO a piston like motion does that not a 'pendulum' like motion.
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What's important is how the cue is moving during contact. This distance is very short.
With a proper setup and delivery of a pendulum stroke, the cue, for all practical purposes will be moving in a straight line a little before, during, and after contact. Any vertical movement during this time will be extremely small and will not effect the shot. Additionally, the mechanics of a pendulum stroke provide great consistency and accuracy, and it's easy to learn and master.
To accomplish the same things with a piston stroke, it will take an extremely long time to learn and master. Until a piston stroke is mastered, there is no guarantee the cue is moving as straight as a pendulum stroke during contact.
Mr. Avlon,
I respectfully disagree with some of your opinions as you have definitively stated them. Please see the blue above.
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I'm not thrilled with the name 'piston' because it's not always an accurate description. A similar stroke used by the Filipinos is a continuous motion stroke and more like a figure-8 than a piston-like movement.
Regardless, I know of many players who naturally use that type of stroke even before they are taught anything. I would not discourage it in a player but rather encourage good timing rather than change their stroke completely. It really doesn't take an extremely long time to learn. However, it's hard to help someone along who strokes that way if the teacher doesn't believe in it. That lack of belief shows up in the instruction.
Ms. Crimi,
I agree. I have found from coaching other sports & teaching playing mechanics that wholesale changes are not the way to go for the best results in both the immediate & long haul. Making one or two changes at the most & waiting for them to become ingrained before adding others seems to work the best.
Even children & adolecents, that do not have long time ingrained mechanics, don't seem to do well with wholesale changes.
At least that has been my experience. I'm not saying no one can handle wholesale changes but it just seems that most can not & it is a bit rare to find one that can. When that happens they usually reveal themselves by asking the right questions or making the right statements after the initial change.
Best Regards,
The last two instructors i had told me basically.....HERE'S HOW YOU HAVE TO DO IT!!!
Mike
Mike
Sorry to hear that. There is usuallly more than one one to skin a cat. The results are usually a bit different but the cat still gets skinnned.
Regards,