Compared to impossible, difficult feels easy.

Tin Man · Jul 6, 2020

high inside three railer

Poolhall60561 said:
Your shot #1, (Bert #5), is the one I struggle with the most. I can’t quite make it to the center of the table. I’ve seen the pro’s hit this shot in a match and effortlessly go completely around the table. I’ll keep working on it. Thanks Tin Man.

Absolutely! And do you know why the high inside three railer is so important? Not only is it a standard and common shot, it has a special role to play and here it is:

Anytime a ball is near the side rail and the next ball in rotation is on the opposite end rail you will have a difficult transition. Most difficult shots in pool you can work around with good position, but shots down rails with your next ball up table is the one shot you can never work around. You have to face it. You will always have just a few options:

1. Low outside zig zag. This is usually best when the object ball is off the rail a ways so the stun angle gets you past the side pocket line and you can just use a twist of outside to get back up (notice this is one of the other 5 sidespin shots I mentioned...

)

2. Get straight in and draw straight back. This can make sense if your next ball isn't all the way on the end rail and you only need to come back a little, say just past the side pocket line. Also if your lead ball is nearby the side to help you ensure you can get close with the proper angle.

3. High inside three railer. BOOM. Here is our hero. No table length draws. Just a nice rolling ball with a spinning cue ball to get the job done. This is a MUST anytime the object ball is near frozen and within 2 diamonds of the corner. But I have learned to love this shot (So does SVB). I use this liberally even when the object ball is a few ball widths off the rail or just above the third diamond. Depending on my approach angle I can often sink and spin and get to the end rail. I like this better than the 'back and forth' ziz zag shot people often use. I prefer to roll my ball over drawing it as roll is more consistent.

The key to this shot is to hit maximum side spin (you don't always need max spin for this shot but the Kinister shot you do) and to catch the right part of the pocket with the object ball with the right speed. In this case I believe you have to curve slightly coming in so you can approach it from a bit more of a full angle, use a speed that is slightly less than you'd think which allows the cue ball to follow through the tangent line just a hair (the object ball is close to the rail but maybe you can hit a centimetre lower), then let your massive spin speed the cue ball up and throw you into the second rail. It's definitely a feely shot.

(Note- on other variations of this shot where you are cutting the ball down the rail more thin than 45 degrees you are better off hitting the thin side of the pocket. When you are more than 45 degrees full is better so your rolling ball allows you to sink through the tangent line. Less than 45 degrees you glance off the ball so much that the roll doesn't do enough, so it's better to cut the ball super thin to alter the tangent line lower on the side rail.)

TIP: If you can't seem to get enough side spin ask yourself this? How often are you miscuing? Half of my students are 'non-spinners'. They use vertical axis or stick to the 'one tip of sidespin' rule. I don't know who invented that rule but it's not one I play by. You have to use maximum side for this shot. The ball should be spinning like a top. If you're not getting the results you want you should use more spin until you've miscued a few times. Most people don't know where the limit really is. (Also, don't use high inside. Just inside. Maybe a hair above center, but not much. Let the table get the cue ball rolling. By sticking closer to the equator line you can get further out on the ball. So using left spin you'd want 9:30 spin, not 10:30 spin. As long as the cue ball is fully rolling upon impact you're in business.) Now, if you're coming in 3-6" from the center of the table that might be the max on your table. Table conditions vary. I can't say without trying it myself. But it should be close!

Get this one down! It is a critical shot. This shot alone helped one of my bootcampers really boost his table runs. Just a must to have all three of the tools I mentioned above really mastered.

Tin Man · Jul 6, 2020

pms

ChrisinNC said:
Demetrius, thanks for your response and explanation as to the specific shots. I watched your match at turning stone versus John Morra. Like you said, you are a deliberate cognitive player who plans out everything well in advance of your shots, always thinking at least 3 or 4 balls ahead.

I wish you were closer than Minnesota! Can I assume all of your one day and three day schools are individual one on one, never taking on more than one student at a time?

Thanks Chris. That match is a good example of what I was talking about. I didn't break and run many racks, I missed some kicks and safeties, but I converted on the routine opportunities at a high rate. This isn't good enough at the elite level but anyone short of that doesn't have to like it.

Shot you a PM. Look forward to meeting someday somewhere.

nine_ball6970 · Jul 6, 2020

Tin Man said:
Agreed. I don't consider myself a great by any stretch, the true greats have dedication and competence beyond what I was able to put in and develop. So far at least. But as I mentioned in my last post on page 1, I find it funny how the best players that have the best shooting skills still seem to give more respect to the routine and try to avoid making the game difficult.

A great example of this is Chang Jung Lin. He is a great shot maker but the only time you ever really see it is if the shot was something left by his opponent or after the break. He just stays in line and almost never gives himself even a semi tough shot on the next ball.

8cree · Jul 6, 2020

Great post once again! Thanks for that. I, for one, would love to see a before and after like you mentioned in post#2. I can read until I'm blue in the face, but once I SEE something I can typically get a grip on it much quicker. Thanks again, looking forward to a before and after.

fastone371 · Jul 6, 2020

Tin Man said:
Absolutely! And do you know why the high inside three railer is so important? Not only is it a standard and common shot, it has a special role to play and here it is:

Anytime a ball is near the side rail and the next ball in rotation is on the opposite end rail you will have a difficult transition. Most difficult shots in pool you can work around with good position, but shots down rails with your next ball up table is the one shot you can never work around. You have to face it. You will always have just a few options:

1. Low outside zig zag. This is usually best when the object ball is off the rail a ways so the stun angle gets you past the side pocket line and you can just use a twist of outside to get back up (notice this is one of the other 5 sidespin shots I mentioned... )

2. Get straight in and draw straight back. This can make sense if your next ball isn't all the way on the end rail and you only need to come back a little, say just past the side pocket line. Also if your lead ball is nearby the side to help you ensure you can get close with the proper angle.

3. High inside three railer. BOOM. Here is our hero. No table length draws. Just a nice rolling ball with a spinning cue ball to get the job done. This is a MUST anytime the object ball is near frozen and within 2 diamonds of the corner. But I have learned to love this shot (So does SVB). I use this liberally even when the object ball is a few ball widths off the rail or just above the third diamond. Depending on my approach angle I can often sink and spin and get to the end rail. I like this better than the 'back and forth' ziz zag shot people often use. I prefer to roll my ball over drawing it as roll is more consistent.

The key to this shot is to hit maximum side spin (you don't always need max spin for this shot but the Kinister shot you do) and to catch the right part of the pocket with the object ball with the right speed. In this case I believe you have to curve slightly coming in so you can approach it from a bit more of a full angle, use a speed that is slightly less than you'd think which allows the cue ball to follow through the tangent line just a hair (the object ball is close to the rail but maybe you can hit a centimetre lower), then let your massive spin speed the cue ball up and throw you into the second rail. It's definitely a feely shot.

(Note- on other variations of this shot where you are cutting the ball down the rail more thin than 45 degrees you are better off hitting the thin side of the pocket. When you are more than 45 degrees full is better so your rolling ball allows you to sink through the tangent line. Less than 45 degrees you glance off the ball so much that the roll doesn't do enough, so it's better to cut the ball super thin to alter the tangent line lower on the side rail.)

TIP: If you can't seem to get enough side spin ask yourself this? How often are you miscuing? Half of my students are 'non-spinners'. They use vertical axis or stick to the 'one tip of sidespin' rule. I don't know who invented that rule but it's not one I play by. You have to use maximum side for this shot. The ball should be spinning like a top. If you're not getting the results you want you should use more spin until you've miscued a few times. Most people don't know where the limit really is. (Also, don't use high inside. Just inside. Maybe a hair above center, but not much. Let the table get the cue ball rolling. By sticking closer to the equator line you can get further out on the ball. So using left spin you'd want 9:30 spin, not 10:30 spin. As long as the cue ball is fully rolling upon impact you're in business.) Now, if you're coming in 3-6" from the center of the table that might be the max on your table. Table conditions vary. I can't say without trying it myself. But it should be close!

Get this one down! It is a critical shot. This shot alone helped one of my bootcampers really boost his table runs. Just a must to have all three of the tools I mentioned above really mastered.

As usual another great topic and posts.
I learned that 3 rail shot on my 9 foot table because the side pockets get so big when trying to zig-zag your way back.
Its alarming how many people dont know what a stun shot is much less being able to shoot one consistently, they are my favorite shots, for me its about the only time I know exactly where the Q ball is going and where I dont need to worry about the speed altering the Q ball path with a cut shot. .
I hope we can get together in near future, I think learning patterns would help me a lot. One thing I had to get over was picking the best shot to start a run instead of choosing the easiest shot (8 ball) I think a lot of people open up with an easy shot rather than a tougher shot that can make the run easier.

Tin Man · Jul 6, 2020

JL Chang

nine_ball6970 said:
A great example of this is Chang Jung Lin. He is a great shot maker but the only time you ever really see it is if the shot was something left by his opponent or after the break. He just stays in line and almost never gives himself even a semi tough shot on the next ball.

Yes! JL Chang is the man. He and Ralf are probably the best at pattern play I've ever seen. Buddy and Nick were my two favorites from the 80s and 90s but they played on Gold Crowns. With Diamond tables Chang and Ralf are the top. Oh, Alex was right there with them when he was on his best game.

One of my favorite compliments was when a player (who was very stingy with praise I might add) told me I played just like JL Chang. What he failed to add was "on a very, very bad day" but I'll take it.

Tin Man · Jul 6, 2020

thank you

8cree said:
Great post once again! Thanks for that. I, for one, would love to see a before and after like you mentioned in post#2. I can read until I'm blue in the face, but once I SEE something I can typically get a grip on it much quicker. Thanks again, looking forward to a before and after.

Thank you 8cree. Yes, a picture is worth 10,000 words. I'm a hack with video but there is a chance I can collaborate with someone who knows how to package. I've got some ideas brewing and we'll see how it plays out.

Tin Man · Jul 6, 2020

thank you

fastone371 said:
As usual another great topic and posts.
I learned that 3 rail shot on my 9 foot table because the side pockets get so big when trying to zig-zag your way back.
Its alarming how many people dont know what a stun shot is much less being able to shoot one consistently, they are my favorite shots, for me its about the only time I know exactly where the Q ball is going and where I dont need to worry about the speed altering the Q ball path with a cut shot. .
I hope we can get together in near future, I think learning patterns would help me a lot. One thing I had to get over was picking the best shot to start a run instead of choosing the easiest shot (8 ball) I think a lot of people open up with an easy shot rather than a tougher shot that can make the run easier.

Thank you fastone!

Yes, the stun shot is our friend. I was watching this video today: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5CRbIGy5PE

The shot at 11:21 is the type most players can't hit. It's a soft stun from distance. If Dennis had rolled that ball in he'd be on the wrong side of the 3 and would have a monster time getting on the 4. But in order to hit that stun shot he had to be able to cue really deep draw on the cue ball to use a medium stroke speed to minimize the sideways movement on the cue ball so it didn't fly off the side rail. He hit this one really pure. It's amazing how often I use this type of hit. Tip accuracy below center is critical in pool, not just to draw, but for the many, many shots like this. Edit- just realized this was also one of the six shots, stun one rail to the middle.

And these tools are great. In 9 ball I use a lot of side spin and do a lot of cue ball travel. In 8 ball it is just the opposite. My rock don't move. It's a foot here, an inch there. Like Mosconi. Very simple. When you move the cue ball 5 feet if you're off by 20% you're off by a foot. That's usually a loss. When you move the cue ball five inches if you're off by 20% you're off by an inch. That's how I like to roll. Also, it's usually the shorter shots are easier to execute anyway so you're accuracy tends to be higher while allowing a greater margin of error.

That's why the key is to master the short game. I'd rather see someone get 3" tighter on their 1 foot position shots than practice stroke shots!

fastone371 · Jul 6, 2020

Tin Man said:
Thank you fastone!

Yes, the stun shot is our friend. I was watching this video today: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5CRbIGy5PE

The shot at 11:21 is the type most players can't hit. It's a soft stun from distance. If Dennis had rolled that ball in he'd be on the wrong side of the 3 and would have a monster time getting on the 4. But in order to hit that stun shot he had to be able to cue really deep draw on the cue ball to use a medium stroke speed to minimize the sideways movement on the cue ball so it didn't fly off the side rail. He hit this one really pure. It's amazing how often I use this type of hit. Tip accuracy below center is critical in pool, not just to draw, but for the many, many shots like this. Edit- just realized this was also one of the six shots, stun one rail to the middle.

And these tools are great. In 9 ball I use a lot of side spin and do a lot of cue ball travel. In 8 ball it is just the opposite. My rock don't move. It's a foot here, an inch there. Like Mosconi. Very simple. When you move the cue ball 5 feet if you're off by 20% you're off by a foot. That's usually a loss. When you move the cue ball five inches if you're off by 20% you're off by an inch. That's how I like to roll. Also, it's usually the shorter shots are easier to execute anyway so you're accuracy tends to be higher while allowing a greater margin of error.

That's why the key is to master the short game. I'd rather see someone get 3" tighter on their 1 foot position shots than practice stroke shots!

Thats a nice shot by DO, tough to get just right on that one too.

And the other I often forget to take into consideration is if I dont get perfect shape am I better off going look or short?? I so often ended up in a bind because I come up an inch too short but would have been OK a foot too long if I had remembered to pay attention to what I could have made work.

sparkle84 · Jul 7, 2020

Tin Man, I understand and agree to a large extent with what you're saying
but believe it's a good bit more complex than you make it out to be and
I'm inclined to place the blame more equally on fundamentals. Or should I
say "stroke".
Just so we're on the same page in regards the type of players we're talking
about, it's guys who are poster children for DiLeberto's famous saying
"You don't know what you don't know"
Typically, mediocre B players, who, when the stars align, turn into A
players for short periods of time.
Some are better players but I think the ones I've described make up the majority
of your group.
IMO there's two things going on. Well, actually three, the 3rd being related to
ego, which from what I've seen, comprises a large percentage of the group.
There's a whole bunch of players out there who are more interested in looking
good as opposed to playing good.
Seeing as those people are unreachable or unteachable so to say, I guess we can
eliminate them from the discussion.
Those remaining can be broken into groups:

A- Good fundamentals but terrible pool IQ*
B- Average to poor fundamentals but good or above pool IQ
C- Some combination of the two.
You could throw in lack of knowledge which there's no excuse for nowadays.

* Pool IQ- While you could make it more complex, in a nutshell, it's instinctively
knowing the best percentage way to go, especially in difficult situations. Now
experience is a factor (maybe 50%?) but I've seen guys play for 2 yrs. and have
exceptional pool IQ and have also seen guys play for 20 yrs. and consistently make
terrible mistakes with BIH. Go figure??

Regarding pool IQ:
I'm not saying it can't be taught because I have had some success doing so with
certain people. But it's difficult. I'd much rather work with players from group B
above than A or C.

So why do I think fundy's play a bigger role than you might think? What is their
purpose? We'd probably mostly agree that it allows for a straighter and more
consistent stroke. Which helps facilitate the single most important thing in pool,
which is striking the CB accurately.
Take any one of your shots where you need to go 2 or 3 rails to the middle of the
table. Many times when running a 9 or 10 ball rack there will be a ball you need
to go around. Now the correct, natural path takes you around the ball no problem.
Going to miss it by 2, 3 inches. Unfortunately, the guy who doesn't hit the CB accurately
will sometimes hit that ball.
Or, another thing that happens because they're aware of that ball and know they
could hit it because they have in the past, they over compensate and go way wide.
If they happen to be under pressure they'll also tend to hit it too hard and now
they're way down table and possibly hooked. Kiss that rack goodbye.
Many of the players who have "decent" fundy's do stuff like this. They know what to
do but execute inconsistently because of their inability to hit the CB accurately.
And as I said it's magnified under pressure.
You mentioned the wagon wheel drill. The players I described above, for the most part,
will have difficulty performing well with that drill.
They can practice forever. If they can't be consistent with tip placement they won't
improve even if they learn to play more "correctly". It'll help but it's not going
to be worth 50+ points. Not happening.

Anyway, not really disagreeing with your premise, just putting forth an additional
point of view on the situation.
I know exactly what you're talking about. I've seen hundreds of guys who could play
much better by simply slowing down and thinking in greater detail and with more precision.
You're on the right path, many instructors aren't.

Couple of my pet peeves are instructors who subscribe to the 3 balls ahead way of playing
position and also "staying on the right side of the ball". While not incorrect, they
tend to be too simplistic and don't convey a more complete story of how to play this
game.
Even with total beginners, in addition to fundy's, aiming, stroke, etc. I think
introducing more advanced topics very early will develop a better player quicker.
Particularly things to stimulate creativity and good thought process.

Great thread. Thanks.

Tin Man · Jul 7, 2020

Hey Sparkle, thank you for a thoughtful post!

You've broken down groups of players in an interesting way. But regardless of category I want to address two questions you have posed: Can pool IQ be taught? And are fundamentals the anchor holding people back from execution?

In my experience it's not fundamentals holding back pool IQ, it's pool IQ holding back fundamentals. Let me explain.

It all starts with a vision. A good, clear vision of what you're trying to do at the table. That vision involves knowing what is possible with a good stroke and tip accuracy, and what is possible in terms of stringing together a series of smooth shots. Once that vision is established, now we have a purpose for those fundamentals. Now we can start asking ourselves and our body to unlock the stroke and tip accuracy we need to achieve that vision.

If there is no vision, than we can stroke into a coke bottle forever but what is the point? We are trying to develop 'good fundamentals', but to do what? Slug balls in the hole one after another? It doesn't matter how good your fundamentals are if you're not asking yourself for the precision with tip, cue ball, and pattern play needed to play great. That's what I find irritating. People think great pool flows out of solid fundamentals. I think it's the other way around and it all is about pursuing the correct vision of pool first with fundamentals playing a subservient role in allowing yourself to make that come to pass.

So, for players with good fundamentals and low pool IQ, I try to help them see a vision on how to put the pieces together. And for players with poor fundamentals and pool IQ, I likewise start with the vision and then allow the fundamentals to come together along the quest for correct pool.

Now, the last group. High pool IQ poor fundamentals. I don't believe it really exists. I'll start a war because this is where most people believe they are. Everyone thinks they know everything, that they think better than they play, and that if they just had others gifts of talent or the right fundamentals it would all come together. But I have yet to see a player who thinks this way play patterns in a way that looks anything beyond atrocious to me. It isn't that they are picking thoughtful patterns and failing to execute, they are simply picking patterns that are destined to fail.

It's like being able to tell if a player is a good player shooting poorly or a poor player on their best day. You can tell by their decision making what their speed is. Likewise these 'high IQ poor fundamental' players aren't as high IQ as they think. If they were they'd be trying to play the game correctly and it would take so much pressure off their fundamentals they'd experience a lot of success. And as I said before their fundamentals would probably evolve to the good in an effort to complete their winning plan. But they aren't going to develop precision with tip accuracy if they aren't demanding the right level of cue ball accuracy from themselves!

I guess it's a chicken and egg debate. But I've always felt that players who put fundamentals at the foundation of the pool game have it wrong. A burning desire to hit a clear goal is the foundation of the game in my opinion. Fundamentals are a supporting beam but not the foundation. And there are players with unorthodox fundamentals that achieve great play, but you won't find anyone without the right picture in their mind and a burning fire in their belly to make it happen get to the top by lackadaisically working on how they point their toe in their basement.

So what do I do? I take my students, show them what perfect pool can look like, show them how easy it can be (seriously, address the ball, learn to use a relaxed swing to hit the cue ball where you are aiming, learn a handful of shots, and learn to put them together easily), and then inspire them to make it happen. Somehow I've been able to take players who have been aimless for many years and get them on a fast track towards great pool where the pieces of their game they need start coming together magically.

In short, to me it's all a clear picture of where you want to go, the quickest way to get there, and a little help along the way, then bing bang boom, run out pool. If it's any tougher than that you're doing it wrong. I don't buy into the whole 'I know what to do but have spent decades and it won't come together' stuff. That means you're on the wrong road. But everyone gets to live their own life and decide what narrative they want to believe and what role they want to play.

Tin Man · Jul 7, 2020

Another angle of what I said above- I wish players would spend more time focused on what they're trying to do instead of how they're trying to do it. This is straight Inner Game of Tennis, self 1 vs. self 2, doer versus teller. The teller doesn't shoot very good pool. Trying to control your fundamentals to then control your shooting is backwards. Instead just let the doer in you picture what you want it to do and then allow it to develop the skills to make it happen. Yes, we have to learn our fundamentals, but most people that say they have a high pool IQ have been strangling their fundamentals instead of letting them come together with a clear image and some detached guidance.

ShootingArts · Jul 9, 2020

stages of pool life

My experience, there are pretty clear stages of a pool player's skill levels. First, just making a few balls in pockets is great!

Second, drawing the ball. Players at this stage see over 75% of shots as draw shots. They may be learning a little follow too.

Then they learn side spin. Lookit that ball zing around the table! They spend a lot of time crashing into balls they shouldn't hit. Many amateurs never get passed a moderately advanced level of this stage.

The understanding of patterns, speed, and angles all seems to come together if people ever grasp the importance of speed and angles. If we took a poll I suspect we would find that the vast majority of players don't work on speed every practice session. Angles mean different things to different people. Loose zone shape is playing angles but not playing them well. It isn't until a player starts playing tight zone and spot shape that they start to really understand angles and speed.

The goal is to never have to use extreme side spin. Many a player has felt like they wasted time learning side spin when they learn how to really play shape. They didn't waste time, extreme side spin was a stage they needed to go through plus there will always be times it is needed, just not nearly as often.

My opinion, once a person is a pretty solid "B" player, where many amateurs top out, they can make 95% of the shots most of the time, maybe more. Those last five percent of shots make the difference between finishing in the money but not in the well paying positions and being in contention to win.

Pool players don't usually bring their significant others with them but even so I had about a half-dozen significant others come to me after a match with tears in their eyes, "You got all the easy shots, it wasn't fair!"

"Yes ma'am, sometimes it just goes that way." No sense in trying to explain to them that I made my shots easy and the other player's hard.

I don't favor the three or four shot rule. I plan an entire inning before the first shot. I may have to change plans, but I replan the entire inning when I do. Sometimes it is to get out, sometimes I am playing to a safety. I find these planned safeties tend to be far stronger than forced safeties. I may play a safety when I could run a few more balls too. If the break out is extremely difficult I'll play the percentages and let the other person try to break out the cluster or balls positioned really awkwardly.

Hu

sparkle84 · Jul 11, 2020

ShootingArts said:
My experience, there are pretty clear stages of a pool player's skill levels. First, just making a few balls in pockets is great!

Second, drawing the ball. Players at this stage see over 75% of shots as draw shots. They may be learning a little follow too.

Then they learn side spin. Lookit that ball zing around the table! They spend a lot of time crashing into balls they shouldn't hit. Many amateurs never get passed a moderately advanced level of this stage.

The understanding of patterns, speed, and angles all seems to come together if people ever grasp the importance of speed and angles. If we took a poll I suspect we would find that the vast majority of players don't work on speed every practice session. Angles mean different things to different people. Loose zone shape is playing angles but not playing them well. It isn't until a player starts playing tight zone and spot shape that they start to really understand angles and speed.

The goal is to never have to use extreme side spin. Many a player has felt like they wasted time learning side spin when they learn how to really play shape. They didn't waste time, extreme side spin was a stage they needed to go through plus there will always be times it is needed, just not nearly as often.

My opinion, once a person is a pretty solid "B" player, where many amateurs top out, they can make 95% of the shots most of the time, maybe more. Those last five percent of shots make the difference between finishing in the money but not in the well paying positions and being in contention to win.

Pool players don't usually bring their significant others with them but even so I had about a half-dozen significant others come to me after a match with tears in their eyes, "You got all the easy shots, it wasn't fair!"

"Yes ma'am, sometimes it just goes that way." No sense in trying to explain to them that I made my shots easy and the other player's hard.

I don't favor the three or four shot rule. I plan an entire inning before the first shot. I may have to change plans, but I replan the entire inning when I do. Sometimes it is to get out, sometimes I am playing to a safety. I find these planned safeties tend to be far stronger than forced safeties. I may play a safety when I could run a few more balls too. If the break out is extremely difficult I'll play the percentages and let the other person try to break out the cluster or balls positioned really awkwardly.

Hu

I'd just like to clarify something so everyone is on the same page about
patterns. To me it's somewhat of a misleading word in regards to the
discussion at hand. What we're really talking about are position routes.
In rotation the order in which we shoot the balls is preordained, we can't
choose.
In all the other games we can choose which ball to shoot. You could say
that's shot selection and it is but many people who play straight pool or
8 ball think of it as pattern play. You choose the pattern that the balls
best connect with one another and the order in which you take them off the
table.
Anyway, that aside, I agree more than disagree with your points but what
sticks out to me the most is the word "speed".
I haven't thought about speed in decades. I suppose I should clarify that.
I play very little pool these days. When I do play it's very likely that my
speed will be off quite a bit. However, the way it will be off will be
consistent. All shots will be off in one direction, too hard or too soft.
Doesn't really matter, the point is, once I start getting a feel for the
balls my speed falls into line. Why is that?
Let's say I played a total of 6 hrs. in the past month. Last played 10 days
ago for an hour or so, yet after about an hour hitting balls I'm controlling my
speed almost perfectly. Doesn't seem possible.
Now let's take a typical player from the group being discussed. They are
probably playing way more pool than I am.
They just lost a game and you hear "all I had to do was come off the rail
and roll past the 6 but I hit it too hard and ended up hooked behind the 8,
I can't believe my speed sucks so bad".
I'll be sitting there shaking my head because in many of these scenarios
the reason for their failure wasn't due to poor speed control. More likely
it's because they chose the wrong position route. This is partly what Tin
Man is talking about when he says people think they have high pool IQ.
The way they chose to play position meant that speed became a critical factor
whereas it could have been almost totally eliminated by taking a different
position path.
The fact that so many players are deficient in
other areas means speed control is a big factor in their success when it
doesn't have to be.
When the game is played correctly, shots requiring very fine speed control
become a very small percentage of total shots.
So if in every 100 shots you're having to deal with speed on 20 of them and
someone else only 2 or 3, who'll be more successful?
No amount of time spent on speed drills can overcome that handicap.

Opinions vary and that's just mine. I've never done a speed drill in my life.
Nor ever recommended that someone needs to do them.
I think time spent in other areas will be way more helpful to achieving game
improvement.
One facet of speed which I would encourage people to study and work on is
the relationship between speed and CB direction off an OB or rail. This is
of great benefit in refining position play.
This is a requirement for playing "correct" pool. What Tin Man has been talking
about when playing better, smarter, easier, is largely making high percentage
decisions and choosing position routes using natural angles and directions,
and entering zones correctly.
That alone will get you a long way but if you want to go even further then
developing an intimate knowledge and feel for speed/direction dynamics is
crucial.
The best ways to develop this would be the brainwash drill and spending some
time playing 3Cushion billiards.
This part of the game more than anything else is why Reyes is called the
Magician. His manipulation of direction through subtle variations in speed
is second to none.

sjm · Jul 11, 2020

Tin Man said:
In my experience it's not fundamentals holding back pool IQ, it's pool IQ holding back fundamentals.

Agreed 100%. Good conceptualization and visualization skills are, far too often, missing ingredients, and when they are not in proper order, they definitely get in the way of maintaining good fundamentals.

By the way, Tin Man, take a bow for an excellent thread.

ShootingArts · Jul 11, 2020

speed and angles

You start off seeming to say that speed isn't that important and then over half of your post is about speed and angles, the same things I advocate. Even playing rotation games there are often plenty of options to get through a rack.

I watched a tournament that the best in the world were playing in focusing on their patterns. Over and over I watched great players playing far harder patterns than they had to and a handful of times one of them crashed into traffic ending their run. I don't think I am better than these guys, but I do think they get on auto pilot and play out of habit when at the table. One rail with gentle follow or three rails in traffic to get to the same area? Both shots brought the cue ball into the length of the area needed to be in, the most forgiving position play. The follow shot was even more forgiving of error.

I don't do drills, don't have the patience for them. Sometimes I will design a drill myself and try it for awhile but shooting drills isn't a strong point with me. Doesn't mean I don't believe in them, just can't make myself spend six hours day after day working on a drill.

When I was on a pool table more than 360 days a year I witnessed somebody playing spot shape. He was doing something I had never considered possible so I had never even tried to gain spot shape. Over the next two or three years I put in 5000 hours or more where every shot was attempting spot shape by using mostly speed and angles. I was a moderately decent amateur chess player at the time, spare time on the job I was allowed to play, and I believe that does a lot to improve the ability to see patterns and multiple patterns and options.

I finally achieved spot shape on the majority of my shots, within an inch. One way this was done was minimum cue ball movement regardless of the game. When I missed spot shape it was usually by a small amount and I was playing tighter area shape than my opponents.

The game was difficult when I was spinning the cue ball a lot. Then I started moving up and down the vertical axis and rarely using more than a half tip or tip of side depending on how a person measures it. The game became almost ridiculously easy.

Developing patterns was a two step approach at first and admittedly complicated. I worked the pattern backwards from the money ball or safety, then forward from the other direction. After awhile it got to where I didn't have to run it backwards first.

Like many of us I took a few decades off for life and family. I'm getting my game back together now. Hard to tell where I am at with a seven foot bar table on the back patio. I haven't been on a nine foot Diamond since this covid crap begin. I think I would rather play in my backyard than have to wear a mask playing but I understand the danger to others when a person doesn't wear one.

Been on the phone and various things while this post rambled on. Hopefully it makes some sense!

Hu

sparkle84 said:
I'd just like to clarify something so everyone is on the same page about
patterns. To me it's somewhat of a misleading word in regards to the
discussion at hand. What we're really talking about are position routes.
In rotation the order in which we shoot the balls is preordained, we can't
choose.
In all the other games we can choose which ball to shoot. You could say
that's shot selection and it is but many people who play straight pool or
8 ball think of it as pattern play. You choose the pattern that the balls
best connect with one another and the order in which you take them off the
table.
Anyway, that aside, I agree more than disagree with your points but what
sticks out to me the most is the word "speed".
I haven't thought about speed in decades. I suppose I should clarify that.
I play very little pool these days. When I do play it's very likely that my
speed will be off quite a bit. However, the way it will be off will be
consistent. All shots will be off in one direction, too hard or too soft.
Doesn't really matter, the point is, once I start getting a feel for the
balls my speed falls into line. Why is that?
Let's say I played a total of 6 hrs. in the past month. Last played 10 days
ago for an hour or so, yet after about an hour hitting balls I'm controlling my
speed almost perfectly. Doesn't seem possible.
Now let's take a typical player from the group being discussed. They are
probably playing way more pool than I am.
They just lost a game and you hear "all I had to do was come off the rail
and roll past the 6 but I hit it too hard and ended up hooked behind the 8,
I can't believe my speed sucks so bad".
I'll be sitting there shaking my head because in many of these scenarios
the reason for their failure wasn't due to poor speed control. More likely
it's because they chose the wrong position route. This is partly what Tin
Man is talking about when he says people think they have high pool IQ.
The way they chose to play position meant that speed became a critical factor
whereas it could have been almost totally eliminated by taking a different
position path.
The fact that so many players are deficient in
other areas means speed control is a big factor in their success when it
doesn't have to be.
When the game is played correctly, shots requiring very fine speed control
become a very small percentage of total shots.
So if in every 100 shots you're having to deal with speed on 20 of them and
someone else only 2 or 3, who'll be more successful?
No amount of time spent on speed drills can overcome that handicap.

Opinions vary and that's just mine. I've never done a speed drill in my life.
Nor ever recommended that someone needs to do them.
I think time spent in other areas will be way more helpful to achieving game
improvement.
One facet of speed which I would encourage people to study and work on is
the relationship between speed and CB direction off an OB or rail. This is
of great benefit in refining position play.
This is a requirement for playing "correct" pool. What Tin Man has been talking
about when playing better, smarter, easier, is largely making high percentage
decisions and choosing position routes using natural angles and directions,
and entering zones correctly.
That alone will get you a long way but if you want to go even further then
developing an intimate knowledge and feel for speed/direction dynamics is
crucial.
The best ways to develop this would be the brainwash drill and spending some
time playing 3Cushion billiards.
This part of the game more than anything else is why Reyes is called the
Magician. His manipulation of direction through subtle variations in speed
is second to none.

white1 · Jul 11, 2020

Fantastic thread

What I would have given for something like this in the 80’s......try and imagine-there was no internet. The only pool u saw was what was in your room and the good players didn’t teach you NOTHING-they just took your cash.

Thanks tin man and others-u have no idea how much you have helped me -it’s strange really-I got it all for free.....thx again

Tin Man · Jul 12, 2020

Stu, thank you very much.

Raycharles, you're very much welcome and good shooting!

Sparkle and Shooting Arts, I absolutely agree that speed is critical in rotation success. And as you pointed out successful speed isn't just about touch, it's about giving yourself easy speed shots. This means two things:

Easy targets (big zones, using rail for brakes, playing with line of angle, etc)
Easy execution (short distances, natural cue ball paths, etc)

Running tables is about mastering easy to master shots and using the high level of control (direction and speed of cue ball) available on these shots to never have to shoot anything harder. Your speed looks really good when you're stopping your ball or rolling naturally into a big zone with the rail to slow you down.

Compared to impossible, difficult feels easy.

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