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ChrisinNC
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05-09-2020, 07:44 AM

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Originally Posted by Dan White View Post
Cool. If you really are ending your runs on easy shots, have you done anything to try and correct that?
It's got to be all mental or lack of focus or just taking the shot for granted and thinking more about the cue ball position for the next shot. No other explanation I can figure.
  
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05-09-2020, 08:15 AM

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Originally Posted by ChrisinNC View Post
It's got to be all mental or lack of focus or just taking the shot for granted and thinking more about the cue ball position for the next shot. No other explanation I can figure.
So what's the solution? I think "pay more attention" might not work. You might have to change your approach to pocketing balls a little so that every shot is given the same consideration. IIRC, Mark Wilson said that Efren took more time on easy shots because they represented an opportunity to play really precise position with the cue ball and give himself better chances for a runout, or something along those lines.


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05-09-2020, 08:20 PM

Bottom line is the large majority of all 14.1 players will never run 100 regardless of how many tries they make. If you can't run 42+ at least once every 3 hour practice session and run 56+ at least once every 3-4 practice sessions, I don't realistically think you have much chance to run 100, unless you can continue to improve these high run percentages. At my age, 63, I've accepted that it's not going to happen for me.
  
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05-10-2020, 05:57 AM

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Originally Posted by ChrisinNC View Post
Bottom line is the large majority of all 14.1 players will never run 100 regardless of how many tries they make. If you can't run 42+ at least once every 3 hour practice session and run 56+ at least once every 3-4 practice sessions, I don't realistically think you have much chance to run 100, unless you can continue to improve these high run percentages. At my age, 63, I've accepted that it's not going to happen for me.
yes, the math gives me a clearer picture, how tough an accomplishment it ist to shoot 100 or 200 or 626.

And it also says that one player can get lucky and shoot 100 once but never get close to repeating his run ever again in his life.

Like with an 1/8 chance to get through the rack you could need on average 100 000 training sessions to shoot 100, but for 10 000 players playing pool on same level one would probably manage a run this high in 2 weeks.

That's why John Schmidt says in his Interview he has much more respect for a player shooting 50+ every month when for a player who managed 100 once in his lifetime.

And it gives me a clearer picture how big an achievment John's 626 were and how good the top players really are.

Like Ralph Eckert was one of the 5 best straight pool players in Germany. I would estimate his chances for 100 in his best years about 1/8 to 1/10. He can get lucky and beat every other player in a tournament with race to 125 but he would need 300 years to achieve 626, something John Shmidt could probably repeat in 2 months.

Playing short races to 125 all these top players seem so close in their ability
but after 1000 high run attempts...

Just from my guts I would estimate in their top form a chance for running 100 from open shot:

Thorsten Hohmann 1:2.3 (from his tournament where he shot 125 and out on first attempt in 4 out of 8 matches managing for the whole tournament 20 innings for 8 matches and 1000 points with 8 of the innings ending because he reached 125 and won the game)
Thomas Engert 1:2.8
John Shmidt 1:3
Niels Feijen 1:4
Oliver Ortmann 1:5
...
Ralph Eckert 1:8

close on first glance but to reach 630 (with above guessed chances)

Thorsten Hohmann 190 attempts
Thomas Engert 650 attempts
John Shmidt 1000 attempts
Niels Feijen 6200 attempts
Oliver Ortmann 25 000 attempts
...
Ralph Eckert 1:8 500 000 attempts


and quite a gap to other pros. But this is definitely not a complete list - just the players I happened to watch playing straight pool. If some pros would really put their mind into straight pool, there are sure some more with the technical abilities to get there - but they would have to put in around 20.000-40.000 racks of straight pool to get there. Or 5000-1000 thousands of training hours.

Last edited by kanzzo; 05-10-2020 at 06:03 AM.
  
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05-10-2020, 06:55 AM

So you're saying if Thorsten dedicated himself to a 14.1 high run, for 10 hours a day, he would likely beat Schmidt's 626 run within a month? With the current lack of tournaments right now, it sounds tempting.

The logistics of doing this - making sure you have every attempt taped and witnessed by numerous neutral and credible observers at all times, makes it considerably more complicated and more expensive than one might think.

The second option, if he wanted to, if he has a home table to do it on, he could attempt to do it on his own. No video, no witnesses, but just for his own peace of mind to see if he could surpass Schmidt’s 626. And if he did, he might very well decide to keep it to himself, as he knows if he was to tell anyone, many would question it’s authenticity, with no witnesses and no video, but he would be doing it just for himself. There’s even the possibility that he or someone else may have already done this and we just don’t know about it.

Last edited by ChrisinNC; 05-10-2020 at 09:17 AM.
  
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05-10-2020, 01:10 PM

In his career best straight pool form I think he could expect to shoot 630 within a month, all the factors like motivation and concentration to run 400+ neglected.

I don't know Thorsten or his actual straight pool game this good. It definitely takes some time to get in straight pool mode. John said he was playing a different (and much better) straight pool game to the end of his world record attempts when 5 months before. And his runs seemed to get better. He was starting to shoot 300+ really often...

But from the hours put into straight pool already and the knowledge behind the game - yes, I think Thorsten has the best shot to break the world record in the shortest time needed if he wantedt to.

Within a month is a high reach. It takes lots of stamina and dedication to go for a high run 8 hours a day every day, even for just a month. And after skidding after 390 balls just racking them up again and try again... For John Schmidt it was a life goal, for Thorsten it is probably not. I think his straight pool world champion titles are worth more to him.

But then again, with my tracking system he could find out really easy, if he is on the track to reach 630 and if he is enjoying playing straight pool 6-8 hours a day every day. He would see how his concentration holds up after 4-6 hours, how frequently he is shooting 200+ and 300+ and see a day to day improvement and how many tries on average he would need to get to 630.

To get live witnesses for the whole time going for the recod is probably a problem. But then it will get questioned anyway if the witnesses are trustworthy... Just recording every run is really easy (I am doing it myself every training session . 128GB card for 20$ will record 50 hours straight in 720 resolution. After the training session you can copy it on a harddrive and have your SD card empty for next day) Going for new world record I would use two camcorders from two angles so at any given time at least from one camcorder you can see all the balls. So you just need 2 camcorders set up and Thorsten has one already (he posts some runs or drills on facebook and youtube).

There is a huge discussion here in the forum, why Johns run could be shady or there could be problems with the video (since it is not available to the public) - so I think a video proof would be enough to be accepted by the pool world.

I don't think someone tried and broke the record and keeps it to himself (sounds like absolutely crazy idea to me) - but I can imaginge that for a world champion some additional incentive is needed to try to break the record than just the bragging rights to have done so. If Thorsten could negotiate a deal to get 50 000 $ for breaking the world record - why doing it for free. Usain Bolt would't run a new world record if price wasn't right even if he was able to.

But then again just doing a voice-over and selling the run as ppv will probably bring a few thousands so since all the big tournaments are on hold, I would go for a try (if I were Thorsten). At least just to see how close I am to the form needed.

Last edited by kanzzo; 05-10-2020 at 01:25 PM.
  
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Dan White
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05-10-2020, 04:28 PM

There is one fallacy in these mathematical discussions and the ability for someone to beat 626. If we calculate that it will take me 400 years playing every day I would say that after about 200 years I would become the greatest straight pool player in the history of the game. 1000 balls would be child's play.


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High Hopes! Need to search for the elixir of Life!
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High Hopes! Need to search for the elixir of Life! - 05-10-2020, 05:00 PM

526 to 626 took seventy-five years to increase by 100! Good Luck with Your Quests, all!

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05-11-2020, 02:54 AM

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Originally Posted by xradarx View Post
526 to 626 took seventy-five years to increase by 100! Good Luck with Your Quests, all!
the four-minute mile was thought to be impossible to break for decades. Then after one runner did it and showed the world, that it was possible - now the "four minute barrier" has since been broken by over1400 male athletes.

Any young player putting their mind to break this record can do it. It's a great achievement but not an impossible one. And everything that John did to reach it is out there to duplicate for yourself.

It obviosly needs love and dedication for straight pool, you'll need about 10 000 hours of deliberate practice to get to the level needed. But with all the learning tools and great straight pool players available on tape, you have all the information needed.
  
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05-11-2020, 03:06 AM

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Originally Posted by Dan White View Post
There is one fallacy in these mathematical discussions and the ability for someone to beat 626. If we calculate that it will take me 400 years playing every day I would say that after about 200 years I would become the greatest straight pool player in the history of the game. 1000 balls would be child's play.
You are right, I would even say that after 10 years you would already become a great enough player to break the record. Going for the run day after day will make you better. It improved Johns straight pool game...

i don't see it as a fallacy though, you have a way to measure your improvement on the way and see how your goal gets closer.

You start out with shooting 42 every other week, than you shoot 50+ regularly, than you shoot your first 100+, than you shoot 100 almost every day, than you can bet your life on shooting 100 every day, than you shoot your first 400, than you start shooting 200+ almost every day, than you shoot 626 and change your name to Mr. 600...

easy game (takes about 20-25 years to repeat under same conditions - but I think it's easier now with all the information available, so perhaps a little under 15 years )
  
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05-11-2020, 03:27 AM

I started the thread, because before I had no clue how far I am away from my goal and what steps I would have to take to get there. I thought I am already a good enough player to shoot 100, no idea why I never came close. I shot 2 60+ last year in a tournament, my high run is about 73. I had multiple matches with an average score over 10 (like match to 125 in 10-11 innings or match to 100 in 8 innings). I had no clue where I stand on the path to 100.

Now I know the milestones needed to get there and I can measure my process and see where I am standing and how fast I am moving. I have an understanding now, that it's not about shooting some random 61 balls once, but shooting 60 regularly, its about the number of attempts on average. I know now what level of play I have to deliver every training session to be a player that can shoot 100.

I know now that I am not good enough yet to shoot 100, but I can calculate, how much worse I am and have a way to measure how much better to get.

I will work on my goal and keep track of my success and can keep you posted if you are interested. I will definitely post my video of my first 100 no matter if you are interested or not

This will be such a high achievement - especially on my tough practice table - i will let the whole world know when I reach it

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05-11-2020, 04:13 AM

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Originally Posted by kanzzo View Post
I started the thread, because before I had no clue how far I am away from my goal and what steps I would have to take to get there. I thought I am already a good enough player to shoot 100, no idea why I never came close. I shot 2 60+ last year in a tournament, my high run is about 74. I had multiple matches with an average score over 10 (like match to 125 in 10-11 innings or match to 100 in 8 innings). I had no clue where I stand on the path to 100.

Now I know the milestones needed to get there and I can measure my process and see where I am standing and how fast I am moving. I have an understanding now, that it's not about shooting some random 61 balls once, but shooting 60 regularly, its about the number of attempts on average. I know now what level of play I have to deliver every training session to be a player that can shoot 100.

I know now that I am not good enough yet to shoot 100, but I can calculate, how much worse I am and have a way to measure how much better to get.

I will work on my goal and keep track of my success and can keep you posted if you are interested. I will definitely post my video of my first 100 no matter if you are interested or not

This will be such a high achievement - especially on my tough practice table - i will let the whole world know when I reach it
Since you mentioned it, just curious as to the specs of your practice table? Corner pocket mouth measurements, side pocket mouth measurement and corner pocket facing angle degrees?
  
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05-11-2020, 10:08 AM

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Originally Posted by sjm View Post
By the way, if you can only succeed 1/4 of the time, it gets much tougher. Then, your chances are (1/4)^7, or about 1 in 16,384.
This post (and its predecessor from SJM suggesting that a 1/3 guy has a shot), together with the following statement from Kanzzo in one of his posts - “And it depends on the amount of concentrated training and attempts you put in” - got me thinking.

I am among those who have 100 balls as a goal. I am a quite a ways off, and have a lot of improvement to do. I have long been aware of the importance of developing good fundamentals, and doing drills, in order to get better. Yet, running of balls is enticing, and I have been rationalizing that I can effectively combine running balls and working on discrete areas needing improvement - from pre-shot routine to grip pressure to stroke mechanics to shot selection, etc., etc. But this approach, I think, is lacking, for two reasons.

First, there is a certain numbing effect associated with racking and running and missing, and re-racking and missing, and re-racking and running and missing - over and over. While I am trying to concentrate effectively each and every inning, I know that at some point, in some way, my concentration just isn’t always what it can be and needs to be. So, one thing that I need is to have a higher percentage of what Kanzzo called “concentrated attempts.” One way to do this is to simply impose a limit on the number of innings that I will attempt during any one session, or during any one block of a session. But here’s a different way that occurred to me, and it was prompted by SJM’s comments about the odds of getting to 100 if you are running a rack (and leaving a break ball) 1/3 vs. 1/4 times (and how starkly different those odds are).

After practicing for a session the other night with a purpose of recording the frequency of running the opening rack (and leaving a good break shot), and happening to experience, during that session, several misses that were “classic” ones for me - shots that I should make but am uncomfortable with - I decided to do this: if I succeeded in running a rack (and leaving myself a good break shot) 1/3, I earned the privilege of attempting another three innings to do the same. If I failed, my task became either (a) making ten in a row of whichever miss (of the three misses that I just had) I know to be a weak spot for me, or (b) executing well, ten times, some shot that I had failed to execute well during a run (usually a speed issue), leading to the end of that run. Only after this work can I go back to another set of three attempts at running balls.

As I was told some time ago by an excellent instructor, if you don’t have that shot, you need to get that shot. I haven’t forgotten that advice, but I also haven’t taken it to heart as much as I should. I also have in my head Ray Martin’s wise counsel to set up and repeat, multiple times, the exact same shot when trying to master it. I have become sick and tired of too many runs ending as a result of missing or misplaying one or another of the handful of shots that are my nemeses, and it is clear to me that I need to take time out to master them. This approach allows me to do that without giving up the fun of running balls, all in the same session.

Last edited by Seth C.; 05-11-2020 at 12:50 PM.
  
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05-11-2020, 11:15 AM

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Originally Posted by Seth C. View Post
if I succeeded in running a rack (and leaving myself a good break shot) 1/3, I earned the privilege of attempting another three innings to do the same. If I failed, my task become either (a) making ten in a row of whichever miss (of the three misses that I just had) I know to be a weak spot for me, or (b) executing well, ten times, some shot that I had failed to execute well during a run (usually a speed issue), leading to the end of that run. Only after this work can I go back to another set of three attempts at running balls.

As I was told some time ago by an excellent instructor, if you donít have that shot, you need to get that shot.
thank you for sharing. I think it's a great way to improve one's training.

Yes, this is the biggest task to find out where your weaknesses are and what stops you from running a rack 1/3 - and then find a way working on these weaknesses to eliminate them. Wish you the best for shooting your first 100
  
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05-11-2020, 11:40 AM

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Originally Posted by ChrisinNC View Post
Since you mentioned it, just curious as to the specs of your practice table? Corner pocket mouth measurements, side pocket mouth measurement and corner pocket facing angle degrees?
For azbilliards forum standard my table seems very average. But in my area almost everyone plays on 5 inch pockets. So here my table looks tough. My 60,61 and 73 I shot on a 5 inch pocket table. My high run on my practice table is 54.

My practice table is a 9 foot GC V tournament edition with 4.5 inch pockets.
Table Difficulty Factor 1.00

pocket mouth 11.4 cm (4.48 inch) (PSF 1.00)
side pocket mouth 12.5 cm (4.92 inch)
pocket throat 9.7 cm (3.82 inch)
mouth throat difference 1.7 cm (0.66 inch) (PAF 1.02) this makes for 141į pocket facing angle
pocket shelf depth 3.3 cm (1.30 inch) (PLF 0.98)
  
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