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1973 14.1 final Lou Butera vs. Masaru Hanatani
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1973 14.1 final Lou Butera vs. Masaru Hanatani - 07-23-2020, 09:34 AM

https://youtu.be/GkoXfbhga_4

1973 14.1 final Lou Butera vs. Masaru Hanatani. 6th All Japan Championship.

This match was very enjoyable to watch. You can see some of Lou's super quick play, in competition. The match is in Japanese, but someone did closed commentary in English (you have to press the YouTube CC button to see it). The commentator is a fellow Japanese professional, and his insights into the game and competitive play are really nice, IMO. His co-commentator is a banger.

I actually watched the match twice. Once before I knew there was CC, and then again with it turned on. I enjoyed both equally.

A few things really stuck out at me:
1) The table seemed very fast. Did they have Simonis 760 in 1973? I believe 760 pre-dated 860 by 20 some years.
2) The CB never got stuck to the side of the stack on a break or secondary break.
3) The racking time was maybe 5 seconds, literally. Then the break was about 3 seconds later. There did not appear to be any editing out during the match, it was straight through. I can't believe they rack, and then broke, that quickly.
4) Lou has 7 children.
5) Lou is only fast on the table. In his personal life, he is relaxed (according to commentator)
6) Table in the background on a few of the shots looks like it has blue cloth? (I'm colorblind, might be green but the lights make it look blue?) Can anyone confirm its color?

The camera work was horrible. It was like the super early ESPN crews that knew nothing about pool, and followed the balls around. Still, it was enjoyable to watch.

The whole match is 53 min, and went down to the wire.

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07-23-2020, 10:00 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by iusedtoberich View Post
https://youtu.be/GkoXfbhga_4

1973 14.1 final Lou Butera vs. Masaru Hanatani. 6th All Japan Championship.

This match was very enjoyable to watch. You can see some of Lou's super quick play, in competition. The match is in Japanese, but someone did closed commentary in English (you have to press the YouTube CC button to see it). The commentator is a fellow Japanese professional, and his insights into the game and competitive play are really nice, IMO. His co-commentator is a banger.

I actually watched the match twice. Once before I knew there was CC, and then again with it turned on. I enjoyed both equally.

A few things really stuck out at me:
1) The table seemed very fast. Did they have Simonis 760 in 1973? I believe 760 pre-dated 860 by 20 some years.
2) The CB never got stuck to the side of the stack on a break or secondary break.
3) The racking time was maybe 5 seconds, literally. Then the break was about 3 seconds later. There did not appear to be any editing out during the match, it was straight through. I can't believe they rack, and then broke, that quickly.
4) Lou has 7 children.
5) Lou is only fast on the table. In his personal life, he is relaxed (according to commentator)

The camera work was horrible. It was like the super early ESPN crews that knew nothing about pool, and followed the balls around. Still, it was enjoyable to watch.

The whole match is 53 min, and went down to the wire.
Way cool. Thanks for sharing. I could never pick a worthwhile pattern that quickly.


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07-23-2020, 10:07 AM

looks like its played on a bar box almost or is it just me?
might just be the camera angle


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07-23-2020, 11:15 AM

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Originally Posted by Texas Carom Club View Post
looks like its played on a bar box almost or is it just me?
might just be the camera angle
No, looks like a 9' GC1 or 2 to me. Japan had the legit GC's, still does to this day on their modern tournaments. You can see the ball return covers in a few spots. You can also see the other table in the background.
  
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07-23-2020, 12:05 PM

Cloth looks traditional green to me.

Great video and thanks for posting.

Lou ran the first 14 balls in 2 minutes.

Wow
  
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07-23-2020, 06:25 PM

What happened to Butera in that match? Worst professional case of the chokes I have ever witnessed! The pockets were HUGE on those GCs! Goes to show you- the pros competing today on those tough Diamond tables- like night and day from this tournament Brunswick in 1978. The top 20 14.1 players in the world today would consistently beat either of those guys in a match to 200.
  
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07-23-2020, 07:33 PM

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Originally Posted by mikemosconi View Post
What happened to Butera in that match? Worst professional case of the chokes I have ever witnessed! The pockets were HUGE on those GCs! Goes to show you- the pros competing today on those tough Diamond tables- like night and day from this tournament Brunswick in 1978. The top 20 14.1 players in the world today would consistently beat either of those guys in a match to 200.
More to it than pocket size. Yes, pockets were loose back then compared to today, but the balls were of far lower quality and the rails were inferior to those of today, so the balls didn't spread as easily on both primary and secondary break shots. Also, today's players are very poor at safety play compared to those of the last generation and play weaker patterns.

Agreed that today's top guys shoot amazingly straight, but I doubt you could find a team of ten today that would have been a match for a 1980 dream team of Sigel, Varner. Mizerak, Hopkins, Martin, Rempe, Crane. Balsis, West, and DiLiberto, hall of famers every one of them, assuming everyone is still in their prime. My money would be on the old timers.

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07-24-2020, 08:08 AM

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Originally Posted by sjm View Post
More to it than pocket size. Yes, pockets were loose back then compared to today, but the balls were of far lower quality and the rails were inferior to those of today, so the balls didn't spread as easily on both primary and secondary break shots. Also, today's players are very poor at safety play compared to those of the last generation and play weaker patterns.

Agreed that today's top guys should amazingly straight, but I doubt you could find a team of ten today that would have been a match for a 1980 dream team of Sigel, Varner. Mizerak, Hopkins, Martin, Rempe, Crane. Balsis, West, and DiLiberto, hall of famers every one of them, assuming everyone is still in their prime. My money would be on the old timers.
Yes, I would agree that the older 14.1 players knew the total game much more than most players today. Also, yes, the older players would adapt to today's equipment. I would not bet against any of the guys you mention either.

I think I got carried away watching that video yesterday. THAT Brunswick in Japan had HUGE pockets- look at the side pockets in the video- you just can't miss! Also, the balls were spreading real well on that table on break speeds way less than the Europeans use today. I like Lou Butera, but my gosh- he needed 10 points to win and THREE times he got up to shoot and dogged an easy shot, followed the cue ball INTO the pocket on a two foot shot, and glanced off another OB on another 2 foot shot! I never saw such a poor closing performance - THREE gaffs in a row by a professional world champion.

Lately I have watched Shane and a few of the Europeans playing 14.1 and they just shoot their way out of every bad situation- with shots that are just unbelievable on those Diamond tables! Their break shot speeds with high make percentages are also very impressive on those tables. I was present when Oliver Ortmann won that 1989 US OPEN in Chicago- still have my program from the Palmer House Hotel. All the guys you mentioned except Crane and Balsis were playing in that tournament - Oliver was dominant! These guys today shoot even straighter than Oliver did back then- his style was wide open, just like the guys today. The old timers could not deal with it 31 years ago in their prime. However, I will agree, that group would have adjusted to today's tables, and perhaps modified their 14.1 styles a bit; but I would say it is probably a 50/50 toss up as to who would dominate today - the old American style of 14.1 or the super straight shooting and wider open 14.1 play we see much of today.
  
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07-24-2020, 08:19 AM

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Originally Posted by mikemosconi View Post
Yes, I would agree that the older 14.1 players knew the total game much more than most players today. Also, yes, the older players would adapt to today's equipment. I would not bet against any of the guys you mention either.

I think I got carried away watching that video yesterday. THAT Brunswick in Japan had HUGE pockets- look at the side pockets in the video- you just can't miss! Also, the balls were spreading real well on that table on break speeds way less than the Europeans use today. I like Lou Butera, but my gosh- he needed 10 points to win and THREE times he got up to shoot and dogged an easy shot, followed the cue ball INTO the pocket on a two foot shot, and glanced off another OB on another 2 foot shot! I never saw such a poor closing performance - THREE gaffs in a row by a professional world champion.

Lately I have watched Shane and a few of the Europeans playing 14.1 and they just shoot their way out of every bad situation- with shots that are just unbelievable on those Diamond tables! Their break shot speeds with high make percentages are also very impressive on those tables. I was present when Oliver Ortmann won that 1989 US OPEN in Chicago- still have my program from the Palmer House Hotel. All the guys you mentioned except Crane and Balsis were playing in that tournament - Oliver was dominant! These guys today shoot even straighter than Oliver did back then- his style was wide open, just like the guys today. The old timers could not deal with it 31 years ago in their prime. However, I will agree, that group would have adjusted to today's tables, and perhaps modified their 14.1 styles a bit; but I would say it is probably a 50/50 toss up as to who would dominate today - the old American style of 14.1 or the super straight shooting and wider open 14.1 play we see much of today.


I've been watching pool since 1961.
The old time 14.1 players played a very conservative style of play.
They would play safe instead of taking a low percentage shot.
The fear was at that level your opponent might run a boat load of balls.Most of today's 14.1 players take a 9 ball mentality to the game and go for the really tough shots instead of playing safe.
And the old timers played better patterns and stayed out of trouble.
Most of today's players dont do this as well and just shoot their way out of trouble.

I saw Lou play at the 14.1 Championship at the Commodore hotel in 1964.
He was amazingly fast to watch in person.


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07-24-2020, 09:24 AM

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Originally Posted by measureman View Post
[/SIZE][/B]

I've been watching pool since 1961.
The old time 14.1 players played a very conservative style of play.
They would play safe instead of taking a low percentage shot.
The fear was at that level your opponent might run a boat load of balls.Most of today's 14.1 players take a 9 ball mentality to the game and go for the really tough shots instead of playing safe.
And the old timers played better patterns and stayed out of trouble.
Most of today's players dont do this as well and just shoot their way out of trouble.

I saw Lou play at the 14.1 Championship at the Commodore hotel in 1964.
He was amazingly fast to watch in person.
Agree with you 100%- BUT- the guys today often do not CHOOSE to play those safeties just because they are so confident that they WILL make those really tough shots. THAT, to me is the real difference in 14.1 today. Ortmann introduced us in the states to this style of play in 1989 and he won! Now, these guys are even better shotmakers, even on the tough pockets, so unless the old style 14.1 play completely shuts them out of any open shot - today's guys, to me, are more odds on favorites to dominate with their style. They almost negate perfect pattern play rules with their shotmaking abilities- I like the pattern play much better; just commenting on how these guys today keep runs going through sheer firepower- it is impressive!

It makes for interesting discussion, I am sure that golf and tennis fans have the same observations concerning play from the 1960s and 70s compared to today.

Lou just went a little too fast in this match- not sure what happened to him that night- obviously he was a great 14.1 champion, I almost wish I never saw this video of him yesterday.

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07-24-2020, 09:55 AM

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Originally Posted by mikemosconi View Post
Agree with you 100%- BUT- the guys today often do not CHOOSE to play those safeties just because they are so confident that they WILL make those really tough shots. THAT, to me is the real difference in 14.1 today. Ortmann introduced us in the states to this style of play in 1989 and he won! Now, these guys are even better shotmakers, even on the tough pockets, so unless the old style 14.1 play completely shuts them out of any open shot - today's guys, to me, are more odds on favorites to dominate with their style. They almost negate perfect pattern play rules with their shotmaking abilities- I like the pattern play much better; just commenting on how these guys today keep runs going through sheer firepower- it is impressive!

It makes for interesting discussion, I am sure that golf and tennis fans have the same observations concerning play from the 1960s and 70s compared to today.

Lou just went a little too fast in this match- not sure what happened to him that night- obviously he was a great 14.1 champion, I almost wish I never saw this video of him yesterday.
Good post I agree.
But I always thought of Lou as slightly below the top 14.1 guys of his era.


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07-24-2020, 10:30 AM

There must be some tape editing between racks? There is virtually no possible way they could place all the balls up from the ball box and rack with a perfectly placed and absolutely tight rack that fast!
  
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07-24-2020, 10:35 AM

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There must be some tape editing between racks? There is virtually no possible way they could place all the balls up from the ball box and rack with a perfectly placed and absolutely tight rack that fast!
IDK, it is crazy fast. If the commentary was live, there is no lapse at all in their talking, and I can't see how they could have edited out the racking. Man, it is fast!
  
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07-24-2020, 10:36 AM

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More to it than pocket size. Yes, pockets were loose back then compared to today, but the balls were of far lower quality and the rails were inferior to those of today, so the balls didn't spread as easily on both primary and secondary break shots. Also, today's players are very poor at safety play compared to those of the last generation and play weaker patterns.

Agreed that today's top guys should amazingly straight, but I doubt you could find a team of ten today that would have been a match for a 1980 dream team of Sigel, Varner. Mizerak, Hopkins, Martin, Rempe, Crane. Balsis, West, and DiLiberto, hall of famers every one of them, assuming everyone is still in their prime. My money would be on the old timers.
https://youtu.be/GkoXfbhga_4?t=1776

29:36

Good example of balls not spreading like the probably would under modern conditions. He probably would have been better off running into the 8 loosening up some balls and not getting stuck.
  
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07-24-2020, 10:41 AM

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This is the table in the background that looked blue to me. It must have been an optical illusion, as the next frame it looks green.

Also agree some of the camera angles make the table look very small. I bet it had something to do with the lenses they used.

Pockets are probably standard GC 5" pockets.
  
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