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iusedtoberich
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07-24-2020, 10:43 AM

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Originally Posted by alstl View Post
https://youtu.be/GkoXfbhga_4?t=1776

29:36

Good example of balls not spreading like the probably would under modern conditions. He probably would have been better off running into the 8 loosening up some balls and not getting stuck.
Wow, I saw that shot completely differently than you. To me, it looks like the balls spread a mile for the way the CB hit them. Better than on 860. I guess we all see things differently
  
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JusticeNJ
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07-24-2020, 10:55 AM

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Originally Posted by iusedtoberich View Post
IDK, it is crazy fast. If the commentary was live, there is no lapse at all in their talking, and I can't see how they could have edited out the racking. Man, it is fast!
It looked to me like the balls returned into some sort of rack-box that the ref pulled out and placed on the table instead of falling into a normal ball return box. When I first watched I was also alarmed how quickly they got the balls racked up.

Edit: the contraption can be seen at this timestamp: https://youtu.be/GkoXfbhga_4?t=1235

And here too, which might give better context to how this was racked so quickly. I wouldn't mind finding one of these myself. https://youtu.be/GkoXfbhga_4?t=2510


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Last edited by JusticeNJ; 07-24-2020 at 11:07 AM.
  
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mikemosconi
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07-24-2020, 12:34 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by alstl View Post
https://youtu.be/GkoXfbhga_4?t=1776

29:36

Good example of balls not spreading like the probably would under modern conditions. He probably would have been better off running into the 8 loosening up some balls and not getting stuck.
Right! But even today, going off the rail after hitting a ball and then into a fairly tight stack from the side or bottom rail is always dangerous- i would agree with you- better to have hit the 8 and free up that cue ball for sure. Hitting a ball like the 10 which is frozen to a wall of balls behind it is trouble. Primary break shots and secondary break shots that contact rail(s) before contacting any stack should ideally contact end balls and then move the cue ball out into an open area. One exception is the three rail path a cue ball takes when an under the rack primary break shot is going to contact one of the middle balls in the bottom of the rack. But even there, the rails are only contacted after the cue ball hits the stack.
  
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Bob Jewett
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07-24-2020, 12:41 PM

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Originally Posted by measureman View Post
[/SIZE][/B]

I've been watching pool since 1961.
The old time 14.1 players played a very conservative style of play.
They would play safe instead of taking a low percentage shot.
The fear was at that level your opponent might run a boat load of balls.Most of today's 14.1 players take a 9 ball mentality to the game and go for the really tough shots instead of playing safe.
And the old timers played better patterns and stayed out of trouble.
Most of today's players dont do this as well and just shoot their way out of trouble.
...
I think the traditional players were too conservative. It seemed to me that they would pass up a 60% shot to get into a safety battle that might only be 50-50. Shoot the 60% shot if it leads to a continuation of the run. The safe is indicated instead if it is almost guaranteed to lead to the first open shot. Then Luther takes the third foul on you, breaks perfectly and you are stuck on the end rail with no shot and no safe, knowing that if you leave an edge sticking out Luther is going to make it.


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07-24-2020, 02:15 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
I think the traditional players were too conservative. It seemed to me that they would pass up a 60% shot to get into a safety battle that might only be 50-50. Shoot the 60% shot if it leads to a continuation of the run. The safe is indicated instead if it is almost guaranteed to lead to the first open shot. Then Luther takes the third foul on you, breaks perfectly and you are stuck on the end rail with no shot and no safe, knowing that if you leave an edge sticking out Luther is going to make it.
Reminded me of this a little bit. https://youtu.be/XqDVtRcZiSY?t=2357


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mikemosconi
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07-24-2020, 02:52 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
I think the traditional players were too conservative. It seemed to me that they would pass up a 60% shot to get into a safety battle that might only be 50-50. Shoot the 60% shot if it leads to a continuation of the run. The safe is indicated instead if it is almost guaranteed to lead to the first open shot. Then Luther takes the third foul on you, breaks perfectly and you are stuck on the end rail with no shot and no safe, knowing that if you leave an edge sticking out Luther is going to make it.
The really straight shooters today who also play 14.1 don't see many shots that they consider 60%- exactly why they go for many shots that continue their runs- the exact situations that the "old timers" went instead for a safety battle- even with the more forgiving tables of yesteryear- conservative play dominated a lot of 14.1- Mosconi dominated because he ran so many balls all the time that guys had trouble even getting him into a safety battle. He ran so many due to his superb pattern play and 14.1 instincts.
  
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07-24-2020, 04:21 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
I think the traditional players were too conservative. It seemed to me that they would pass up a 60% shot to get into a safety battle that might only be 50-50. Shoot the 60% shot if it leads to a continuation of the run. The safe is indicated instead if it is almost guaranteed to lead to the first open shot. Then Luther takes the third foul on you, breaks perfectly and you are stuck on the end rail with no shot and no safe, knowing that if you leave an edge sticking out Luther is going to make it.
The old time players were conservative by today's standards.
I learned 14.1 during that era(yeah I'm old)and thats the way we played.
Safe safe safe until you either trapped the other guy or he made a mistake.

When I started to really learn one pocket I realized that my 14.1 safe skills came in handy at times.


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mikemosconi
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07-24-2020, 05:18 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by measureman View Post
The old time players were conservative by today's standards.
I learned 14.1 during that era(yeah I'm old)and thats the way we played.
Safe safe safe until you either trapped the other guy or he made a mistake.

When I started to really learn one pocket I realized that my 14.1 safe skills came in handy at times.
I remember learning 14.1 that way too! Really good players liked to leave a ball to the right or left of the stack and the cue ball at a fairly steep angle way up near the top rail. They loved to tempt weaker players to shoot the shot- usually a miss- then have an open rack to go to town. When learning 14.1 ; most of us lost many a match taking that bait; until we either made that shot consistently or returned the bait with a great return safe!
  
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07-25-2020, 06:29 AM

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Originally Posted by iusedtoberich View Post
Wow, I saw that shot completely differently than you. To me, it looks like the balls spread a mile for the way the CB hit them. Better than on 860. I guess we all see things differently
We do indeed. Previous break shot was also an example of how slow the table was.

https://youtu.be/GkoXfbhga_4?t=1757

29:17

Contrast that with modern conditions.

https://youtu.be/U--hXVw4q2A?t=17914

4:58:44
  
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mikemosconi
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07-25-2020, 08:46 AM

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Originally Posted by alstl View Post
We do indeed. Previous break shot was also an example of how slow the table was.

https://youtu.be/GkoXfbhga_4?t=1757

29:17

Contrast that with modern conditions.

https://youtu.be/U--hXVw4q2A?t=17914

4:58:44
The room in Japan is literally packed with people on top of each other- perhaps not even a time of year with air conditioning- completely different playing conditions - I also doubt that the rack system the Japanese were using- was able to get the racks totally frozen. It has nothing to do with rails as the cue ball is going directly into the stack. Probably the humidity and lack of a frozen rack much more than blaming the table itself.
  
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