Why Pivot?

Patrick Johnson

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
Several aiming systems use a pivot to finalize the aim. Why is it the final step in multiple systems? What does pivoting bring to the aiming table?

I don't pivot, so what do I know? But I theorize that pivoting focuses the process of finalizing aim, organizing it as a linear "scan" of cut angles until the correct one is recognized.

Why do you think pivoting is common in aiming? What does it do?

pj
chgo
 
L

LAMas

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
One answer among many.:smile:

One usually pivots to the center of the CB before the hit. This means that one needs to start off to the side of the CB center. How much to the side determines the resulting angle. A ¼ tip offset pre-pivot results an a small angle, a ½ tip a larger angle, a full tip a even larger angle, 2 tips 3 etc.. If one starts aiming at the contact point on the OB and places the bridge to the side (how much?) pre-pivot, one can effect all of the cut angles until one misses the side of the OB (90 degrees).

The rub is that as the OB is farther away from the CB, the smaller the pivot angle is required to effect the same cut angle on the smaller appearing OB than when the CB and OB are closer together when the OB appears larger.

The plus is that it is proportional (until the two are too close together) and can be recalled by some shooters with a great memory.
 
lfigueroa

lfigueroa

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Patrick Johnson said:
Several aiming systems use a pivot to finalize the aim. Why is it the final step in multiple systems? What does pivoting bring to the aiming table?

I don't pivot, so what do I know? But I theorize that pivoting focuses the process of finalizing aim, organizing it as a linear "scan" of cut angles until the correct one is recognized.

Why do you think pivoting is common in aiming? What does it do?

pj
chgo
Click to expand...


Could we please define pivoting or what a pivot is for the purposes of this discussion?

Lou Figueroa
 
SpiderWebComm

SpiderWebComm

HelpImBeingOppressed
Silver Member
Patrick Johnson said:
But I theorize that pivoting focuses the process of finalizing aim, organizing it as a linear "scan" of cut angles until the correct one is recognized.

Nope. Your theory is wrong. No scanning of cut angles at all until the correct one is recognized. Watch, Listen, Learn, and DO what is on the videos below. It's the ONLY WAY.

Why do you think pivoting is common in aiming? What does it do?

Uhhhh, helps a player make more balls with consistency is my choice.

pj
chgo
Click to expand...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_dJHZiN01A


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gkm9WE8HMoE


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIUy9x_J410


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urKYpAC1BEI


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUZy6Go2HjI


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qEsG4KJbuLI



Stop theorizing. Get on the table with what is being shown here. This is my contribution and I'm out and gone from this thread.
 
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BC21

BC21

https://www.playpoolbetter.com
Gold Member
Silver Member
LAMas said:
One answer among many.:smile:

One usually pivots to the center of the CB before the hit. This means that one needs to start off to the side of the CB center. How much to the side determines the resulting angle. A ¼ tip offset pre-pivot results an a small angle, a ½ tip a larger angle, a full tip a even larger angle, 2 tips 3 etc.. If one starts aiming at the contact point on the OB and places the bridge to the side (how much?) pre-pivot, one can effect all of the cut angles until one misses the side of the OB (90 degrees).

The rub is that as the OB is farther away from the CB, the smaller the pivot angle is required to effect the same cut angle on the smaller appearing OB than when the CB and OB are closer together when the OB appears larger.

The plus is that it is proportional (until the two are too close together) and can be recalled by some shooters with a great memory.
Click to expand...

Excellent description of how a pivot works. :thumbup:

Here is an example using a 3/4 hit fractional aim line as an initial reference. With a 9" bridge distance and the cue offset half a tip, the 14.5° angle can manipulated as shown depending from which side of the reference line you apply the pivot.

picture.php
 
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SpiderWebComm

SpiderWebComm

HelpImBeingOppressed
Silver Member
LAMas said:
One usually pivots to the center of the CB before the hit.

Yes and no but not necessarily. There are others that start from CCB to COB with pivot to outside or CCB to 1/4 or 3/4 or edge on OB and then a pivot. See videos provided with Little Mike explaining setup and pivot.

This means that one needs to start off to the side of the CB center. How much to the side determines the resulting angle. A ¼ tip offset pre-pivot results an a small angle, a ½ tip a larger angle, a full tip a even larger angle, 2 tips 3 etc.

For some systems this is correct but not all. Certainly not 90-90,

If one starts aiming at the contact point on the OB

We can stop right here. Contact points or multiple small fractions are never used in pivot systems.

The rub is that as the OB is farther away from the CB, the smaller the pivot angle is required to effect the same cut angle on the smaller appearing OB than when the CB and OB are closer together when the OB appears larger.
Click to expand...

That's pretty accurate.
 
BilliardsAbout

BilliardsAbout

BondFanEvents.com
Silver Member
Patrick Johnson said:
Is there more than one definition?

pj
chgo
Click to expand...

I think that is so. There must be a division between mental pivots (eyes, not cue stick), pre-stroke/practice pivots, and backhand pivoting through the final stroke.

I see a perceptible difference between what I hear some teachers say, "Get down on Line X, pivot through the bridge to Line Y to shoot," and what I see quite a few "pivot pros" do, getting down on Line X only before stroking, or practice stroking at the base of the ball then adjusting the vertical axis only for shots taken without english.

Before I get flamed, I'm aware that many players, including non-pivot pros, apply a flick of backhand or an altered yet straight stroke path (diagonal) through the cue ball for their final stroke, but they might say they are still shooting straight and not swiveling, pivoting.
 
Patrick Johnson

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
BilliardsAbout said:
I think that is so. There must be a division between mental pivots (eyes, not cue stick), pre-stroke/practice pivots, and backhand pivoting through the final stroke.

I see a perceptible difference between what I hear some teachers say, "Get down on Line X, pivot through the bridge to Line Y to shoot," and what I see quite a few "pivot pros" do, getting down on Line X only before stroking, or practice stroking at the base of the ball then adjusting the vertical axis only for shots taken without english.

Before I get flamed, I'm aware that many players, including non-pivot pros, apply a flick of backhand or an altered yet straight stroke path (diagonal) through the cue ball for their final stroke, but they might say they are still shooting straight and not swiveling, pivoting.
Click to expand...
I'm talking about pivoting the stick as the final physical act of aiming, before any strokes.

pj
chgo
 
cookie man

cookie man

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Patrick Johnson said:
I don't pivot, so what do I know? But I theorize that pivoting focuses the process of finalizing aim, organizing it as a linear "scan" of cut angles until the correct one is recognized.



pj
chgo
Click to expand...

Correct, you don't pivot. You use fidget aiming. And that is what you describe here. You fidget around once down in your stance till you get something that looks right.
Pivot systems use defined objective points from which to start and finish your pivot.
 
Patrick Johnson

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
cookie man said:
You use fidget aiming. And that is what you describe here. You fidget around once down in your stance till you get something that looks right.
Click to expand...
I see you know as much about me as you do about your own system.

Pivot systems use defined objective points from which to start and finish your pivot.
Click to expand...
I agree they start from defined objective points - those are always clearly described in the system instructions. And if their finish points (the actual aim line) are defined and objective it should be easy to describe those too. Choose any one from any system (maybe your favorite?) and describe it for us.

pj
chgo
 
cookie man

cookie man

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Patrick Johnson said:
I see you know as much about me as you do about your own system.


I agree they start from defined objective points - those are always clearly described in the system instructions. And if their finish points (the actual aim line) are defined and objective it should be easy to describe those too. Choose any one from any system (maybe your favorite?) and describe it for us.

pj
chgo
Click to expand...

Finish point,lol After 20 years you still don't know. Center cue ball
 
BilliardsAbout

BilliardsAbout

BondFanEvents.com
Silver Member
Patrick Johnson said:
I'm talking about pivoting the stick as the final physical act of aiming, before any strokes.

pj
chgo
Click to expand...

Exactly the problem I see!

Which pro does this, gets down into the stance then moves their stick left and right like they are tasting the wind of the shot--on shots without english?

I've seen all kinds of examples of swerve strokes to accomplish massive spin--from pros--but can't think of a pro who gets down on Line X then pivots to Line Y before stroking.
 
Patrick Johnson

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
cookie man said:
Are you saying you don't fidget? There have been eye witness testimonials on here after all
Click to expand...
Testimonials? lol That's a claim John Barton made about a match he and I had 20+ years ago (he lost, by the way). He said it to try to discredit comments about your aiming system - because he had no real responses either. Birds of a feather.

pj
chgo
 
E

eihi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Assuming some of you have 20/20 vison without one eye being dominate.

How do you approach a shot without pivoting or rotating to get inline?

If you are standing perpendicular to the target line, your body has to move out of the way in order to make room for you to stroke the ball, how could that be accomplished without some sort of pivot or rotation?
 
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