Stroke Question - Upper arm

skipbales

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
In all the training on stroke I have had and watched on video I don't see much mention of the upper arm. It is all about the forearm hanging straight down and not dropping the elbow. But looking at my stroke in a mirror I realized there could be a lot of variance in where my elbow is positioned. I saw most videos the players are bent way over and the upper arm is pretty straight and in line with their back. I have always let keeping the cue level and deciding where I want to hit the cue ball determine this and wherever my elbow was my forearm dropped straight down from there. But I notice my upper arm is not necessarily parallel to the floor. It may slope down quite a bit. The lower I hit the cue ball the lower everything gets as I keep the cue straight. But I COULD still hit low with my upper arm higher, I would just be hitting more down on the cue ball with a less level stroke.

I literally never considered raising my elbow. I just let the forearm swing from wherever the elbow was comfortable with a level cue. If I lift up on my elbow the cue tip points more down and I have to slightly raise my bridge. It is not as comfortable with my elbow higher and you may wonder why I would consider lifting it. The reason is clearance. I often hit my chest in the back swing and that knocks my stick offline. I have to stand a little more upright or move some way or another to get an unrestricted swing. This happens mostly on very long take backs for power draw or force follow shots.

So I get the forearm hangs straight down and the upper arm doesn't move and the elbow doesn't drop. But should the upper arm be parallel to the floor or does that even matter?
 
In all the training on stroke I have had and watched on video I don't see much mention of the upper arm. It is all about the forearm hanging straight down and not dropping the elbow. But looking at my stroke in a mirror I realized there could be a lot of variance in where my elbow is positioned. I saw most videos the players are bent way over and the upper arm is pretty straight and in line with their back. I have always let keeping the cue level and deciding where I want to hit the cue ball determine this and wherever my elbow was my forearm dropped straight down from there. But I notice my upper arm is not necessarily parallel to the floor. It may slope down quite a bit. The lower I hit the cue ball the lower everything gets as I keep the cue straight. But I COULD still hit low with my upper arm higher, I would just be hitting more down on the cue ball with a less level stroke.
I literally never considered raising my elbow. I just let the forearm swing from wherever the elbow was comfortable with a level cue. If I lift up on my elbow the cue tip points more down and I have to slightly raise my bridge. It is not as comfortable with my elbow higher and you may wonder why I would consider lifting it. The reason is clearance. I often hit my chest in the back swing and that knocks my stick offline. I have to stand a little more upright or move some way or another to get an unrestricted swing. This happens mostly on very long take backs for power draw or force follow shots.
So I get the forearm hangs straight down and the upper arm doesn't move and the elbow doesn't drop. But should the upper arm be parallel to the floor or does that even matter?
"Elbow Drop" is just a big humbug from instrictors.
Jimmy Caras, Willie Mosconi, Eddie Talyor, Steve Mizerak, all dropped their elbows most of the time to get a good follow through.
Don't worry about it. Just shoot the balls in the holes.
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
...should the upper arm be parallel to the floor or does that even matter?
As long as your upper arm doesn’t move at least until after the CB is gone, I don’t think its angle matters. But wouldn’t your shoulder & head be too high if it’s horizontal (parallel to the floor)?

pj
chgo
 
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Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
"Elbow Drop" is just a big humbug from instrictors.
Dropping the elbow before contacting the CB unnecessarily complicates the stroke.

Jimmy Caras, Willie Mosconi, Eddie Talyor, Steve Mizerak, all dropped their elbows most of the time to get a good follow through.
Dropping the elbow after CB contact is OK, but you can get careless about the timing - and it’s not necessary. You can get good follow through without dropping the elbow.

pj
chgo
 

JoeyInCali

Maker of Joey Bautista Cues
Silver Member
Dropping the elbow before contacting the CB unnecessarily complicates the stroke.


Dropping the elbow after CB contact is OK, but you can get careless about the timing - and it’s not necessary. You can get good follow through without dropping the elbow.

pj
chgo

Try shooting a spot shot with the cue ball near a rail ( 2 inches away ).
Try a pendulum stroke on that one or a very sound piston stroke.
I find the piston is more accurate on that kind of shot .
Also, when you kill a ball, it is easier for me to drop the elbow.

IMO, pool is so complex, you have to master both strokes .
Even if you shoot 90% of the shots without dropping the elbow.

You will also need to learn how to throw the cue. Sometimes you do not have a full bridge and you need to snip draw. Letting the cue "go through" the cue ball is a must learn imo.

You have to learn to visualize PUSHING the cue ball instead of snapping on it on some shots .
 

skipbales

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Try shooting a spot shot with the cue ball near a rail ( 2 inches away ).
Try a pendulum stroke on that one or a very sound piston stroke.
I find the piston is more accurate on that kind of shot .
Also, when you kill a ball, it is easier for me to drop the elbow.

IMO, pool is so complex, you have to master both strokes .
Even if you shoot 90% of the shots without dropping the elbow.

You will also need to learn how to throw the cue. Sometimes you do not have a full bridge and you need to snip draw. Letting the cue "go through" the cue ball is a must learn imo.

You have to learn to visualize PUSHING the cue ball instead of snapping on it on some shots .

Thanks Joelyn. I have hit tens of thousands of that shot. I used to do 100 a day for a few years. I still do some but not so many.

I was concerned everyone would focus on Elbow drop as that is what everyone talks about. That is not what I am talking about at all. I don't move my elbow during a shot. I do a pendulum swing. BUT it is the positioning of my elbow to begin with I am talking about.
 

skipbales

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
As long as your upper arm doesn’t move at least until after the OB is gone, I don’t think its angle matters. But wouldn’t your shoulder & head be too high if it’s horizontal (parallel to the floor)?

pj
chgo

Hey Patrick, thanks as always for the input.

I was afraid everyone would tune in on elbow drop. That is not an issue for me I don't drop my elbow and I do a pendulum swing.

The issue is on a full length back stroke I don't have clearance for my chest at the end of the take back. I bump my chest or drag along it. That distracts me and knocks the cue offline. I try to stop the stroke and start over but have to stand up a little to get the clearance.

I have always strived for a "level cue". CJ told me my cue was "too level". I didn't even know that was possible. For the first time, yesterday, I realized I could take a more downward angle to the cue ball by lifting my entire upper arm and elbow to begin with. This does give me the clearance but I don't like the angle into the cue ball or the "elbow sticking up in the air" feeling I get.

When a pendulum swings, the butt of the cue is hanging straight down at 6 o'clock. It is up against the chest with the tip on the felt at 9 o'clock. That is all good. But the
butt is also highest at 3 o'clock in the full extension of the back swing. The cue is pulled all the way back and the butt is at the top of the arc. This puts the center of the cue up against my chest and that is the issue. If I don't take it all the way back it is not a problem but if I need the stroke for draw or force follow I use a long back swing. To avoid contact with my chest I have to stand up a little. This is fine on the break as I want to be up anyway. But for a long draw shot I would rather stay lower.

I have tried a variety of angels into the shot where I am turned more sideways and so forth but for best head alignment the cue is running under my chest, not off to the side.

I hope this makes the issue more clear. I apologize for being so wordy.
 

skipbales

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
"Elbow Drop" is just a big humbug from instrictors.
Jimmy Caras, Willie Mosconi, Eddie Talyor, Steve Mizerak, all dropped their elbows most of the time to get a good follow through.
Don't worry about it. Just shoot the balls in the holes.

I watched a "training" video on stroke from Mike Immomen. He has a huge elbow drop and the announcer was explaining how, n the perfect stroke the elbow does not drop until after contact with the cue ball, during follow through. This while Mike is dropping his elbow from the very beginning.

I am ok with or without elbow drop. My issue is clearance from my chest on a long back swing. Maybe I should be dropping my elbow.
 

bbb

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
could it be your back stroke is too long?
i am not an instructor
 

skipbales

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Try shooting a spot shot with the cue ball near a rail ( 2 inches away ).
Try a pendulum stroke on that one or a very sound piston stroke.
I find the piston is more accurate on that kind of shot .
Also, when you kill a ball, it is easier for me to drop the elbow.

IMO, pool is so complex, you have to master both strokes .
Even if you shoot 90% of the shots without dropping the elbow.

You will also need to learn how to throw the cue. Sometimes you do not have a full bridge and you need to snip draw. Letting the cue "go through" the cue ball is a must learn imo.

You have to learn to visualize PUSHING the cue ball instead of snapping on it on some shots .

Out of respect for your suggestion I set up and shot a rack of down the rail shots. When I used to practice them I was doing the Bert Kinister stroke drill where your goal is to hit the exact speed to stun forward and exactly replace the object ball. Since this shot does not require a full back swing I tried them with a maximum draw stroke.

What I discovered was #1 I should do this more often #2 At the tail end of the take back my cue presses against my chest. If I take it back slow enough it is just pressure and may remind me to do a really slow take back. If I take it back too fast the cue stick moves to the right then back to the left to regain straight. If I just wait it stabilizes and hangs straight down. So slow back is better but patience works too. Of course I can always take another stroke but sometimes under pressure I don't remember to do either.

I am looking for a take back that does not press against my chest but maybe the pressure to remind me to take it back slow is not such a bad thing.

Thanks for the tip.
 

skipbales

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
could it be your back stroke is too long?
i am not an instructor

Very possibly. At least too long for my ability. I get great action without having to force the acceleration with the long swing but maybe it is not realistic in part due to a lack of flexibility on my part.

I can only lift my head and tilt back so much, so getting low is a desire but more erect may be what I have to settle for.

I like the feel and smoothness of a long stroke but have mostly settled for a 3/4 back and faster acceleration to avoid the chest contact. I lose accuracy either way. Shorter stroke and faster acceleration vs. longer stroke and loss of clearance.
 

Island Drive

Otto/Dads College Roommate/Cleveland Browns
Silver Member
In all the training on stroke I have had and watched on video I don't see much mention of the upper arm. It is all about the forearm hanging straight down and not dropping the elbow. But looking at my stroke in a mirror I realized there could be a lot of variance in where my elbow is positioned. I saw most videos the players are bent way over and the upper arm is pretty straight and in line with their back. I have always let keeping the cue level and deciding where I want to hit the cue ball determine this and wherever my elbow was my forearm dropped straight down from there. But I notice my upper arm is not necessarily parallel to the floor. It may slope down quite a bit. The lower I hit the cue ball the lower everything gets as I keep the cue straight. But I COULD still hit low with my upper arm higher, I would just be hitting more down on the cue ball with a less level stroke.

I literally never considered raising my elbow. I just let the forearm swing from wherever the elbow was comfortable with a level cue. If I lift up on my elbow the cue tip points more down and I have to slightly raise my bridge. It is not as comfortable with my elbow higher and you may wonder why I would consider lifting it. The reason is clearance. I often hit my chest in the back swing and that knocks my stick offline. I have to stand a little more upright or move some way or another to get an unrestricted swing. This happens mostly on very long take backs for power draw or force follow shots.

So I get the forearm hangs straight down and the upper arm doesn't move and the elbow doesn't drop. But should the upper arm be parallel to the floor or does that even matter?

Show us a video....
 

Imac007

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I watched a "training" video on stroke from Mike Immomen. He has a huge elbow drop and the announcer was explaining how, n the perfect stroke the elbow does not drop until after contact with the cue ball, during follow through. This while Mike is dropping his elbow from the very beginning.

I am ok with or without elbow drop. My issue is clearance from my chest on a long back swing. Maybe I should be dropping my elbow.

Dell Hill, coach to multiple world snooker champions, including Ronnie O’Sullivan, addresses this in a YouTube session posted by the student,

He describes the 4 point stance. The cue is in the bridge at one end, the grip holds the other, the chin touches and a shot key is “chest to cue”.

He goes on to describe the cue plane at address and during the forward stroke. His take on the tip through contact was as level as reasonable. The cue plane, by necessity at address and until contact is normally at a downward angle to clear the rail for one.

His take on the pendulum stroke was it was like a chicken pecking. The hand hits the chest and rebounds causing the “peck.” He preferred a driving action instead,

He referenced two engines driving the cue, the elbow hinge and the upper arm.

The downward plane means the grip starts higher even before it begins the upward arc back. At the back of the arc, there is more height above the table, than for those starting from a level cue at address.

He advocates a pause before the backswing. The elbow angle opens during the backswing. The whole arm, including the upper arm, drive the cue forward. A one piece initial forward motion delays the elbow hinging/re-closing and the arm starts to drop into the space created. The forward arc resembles a plane landing. The whole arm lowers in the initial phase, in a one piece motion, and the closing elbow hinge allows the hand to pass the chest without abruptly stopping with a peck. The hand and cue can drive through when space permits. By being forced to start higher, because of the necessary downward plane at address, extra space is available between the grip hand at the back, down to the desired plane at impact. That means the body must be slightly higher throughout.

The chest to cue movement is more a left to right dynamic, with the cue positioned more beside the rib cage.

There are momentum considerations when the whole arm drives the stroke. That is a related topic to consider.

As to the OP question of elbow height that is an anatomical issue. If the poster decides that the ideal address position has the forearm in a vertical position then the length of his forearm determines the height of the elbow,
 
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skipbales

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Dell Hill, coach to multiple world snooker champions, including Ronnie O’Sullivan, addresses this in a YouTube session posted by the student,

He describes the 4 point stance. The cue is in the bridge at one end, the grip holds the other, the chin touches and a shot key is “chest to cue”.

He goes on to describe the cue plane at address and during the forward stroke. His take on the tip through contact was as level as reasonable. The cue plane, by necessity at address and until contact is normally at a downward angle to clear the rail for one.

His take on the pendulum stroke was it was like a chicken pecking. The hand hits the chest and rebounds causing the “peck.” He preferred a driving action instead,

He referenced two engines driving the cue, the elbow hinge and the upper arm.

The downward plane means the grip starts higher even before it begins the upward arc back. At the back of the arc, there is more height above the table, than for those starting from a level cue at address.

He advocates a pause before the backswing. The elbow angle opens during the backswing. The whole arm, including the upper arm, drive the cue forward. A one piece initial forward motion delays the elbow hinging/re-closing and the arm starts to drop into the space created. The forward arc resembles a plane landing. The whole arm lowers in the initial phase, in a one piece motion, and the closing elbow hinge allows the hand to pass the chest without abruptly stopping with a peck. The hand and cue can drive through when space permits. By being forced to start higher, because of the necessary downward plane at address, extra space is available between the grip hand at the back, down to the desired plane at impact. That means the body must be slightly higher throughout.

The chest to cue movement is more a left to right dynamic, with the cue positioned more beside the rib cage.

There are momentum considerations when the whole arm drives the stroke. That is a related topic to consider.

As to the OP question of elbow height that is an anatomical issue. If the poster decides that the ideal address position has the forearm in a vertical position then the length of his forearm determines the height of the elbow,

This is a great explanation. All of these things work together to provide plenty of clearance. I am trying to stay with the pendulum and use some of these techniques to gain that little bit of extra room for the very long (possibly too long) back stroke for the shots where I want faster speed.

This is very helpful, thank you.
 

skipbales

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Show us a video....

I will do that. I am dusting off an old video camera to make a 15 minute video for Tor Lowry as part of my Patreon 'tournament bound" training. I will clip part or put a link to it when I get it done. I am not sure how soon as I have to remember how to use the camera and then get the video up to youtube. :wink:
 

Ralph Kramden

BOOM!.. ZOOM!.. MOON!
Silver Member
As long as your upper arm doesn’t move at least until after the OB is gone, I don’t think its angle matters. But wouldn’t your shoulder & head be too high if it’s horizontal (parallel to the floor)?

pj
chgo

I would say "As long as your upper arm doesn't move at least until after the CB is gone".

.
 

skipbales

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Update

I spent some time observing the pros on youtube to see why they don't have clearance issues and feel like I may have stumbled on to something.

The players who have their chin right down on the stick and are really bent over only have 3 points on or above the cue stick. The bridge hand, the head only, and the back hand. The stick does not pass under their chest at all. Of course they could not have a clearance issue. These players tend to be the young and thin players. Shane and a young Effren and a lot of the new young players.

The players who have the stick closer to their body and are leaning over the cue so it passes beneath their body tend to play a little taller. I watched a 2015 video of Bob Jewitt and see that Bob seems to be slightly more erect than he was even a few years ago. Dr. Dave plays the cue underneath his body and even when he is bent way over he is still taller than those players who put their chin on the cue and stare straight down it. Dr. Dave is tall but pretty flexible. I am 72 years old and am probably trying to use a stance I am not flexible enough to accommodate.

I have tried to get my entire body out of the line of the shot but have trouble with balance when I lean that far over and turn my head so much to the left to look straight down the cue. I am beginning to think I need to re-analyze my stance, from how I step into the shot to how tall I stand. I may just be an old inflexible guy trying to adopt a young man's stance. Some can do it. Stan Shuffett seems to get his entire body out of the line and have his head straight over the shaft.

If any of you have dealt with aging and changing your stance I would appreciate the comments.
 

Island Drive

Otto/Dads College Roommate/Cleveland Browns
Silver Member
I spent some time observing the pros on youtube to see why they don't have clearance issues and feel like I may have stumbled on to something.

The players who have their chin right down on the stick and are really bent over only have 3 points on or above the cue stick. The bridge hand, the head only, and the back hand. The stick does not pass under their chest at all. Of course they could not have a clearance issue. These players tend to be the young and thin players. Shane and a young Effren and a lot of the new young players.

The players who have the stick closer to their body and are leaning over the cue so it passes beneath their body tend to play a little taller. I watched a 2015 video of Bob Jewitt and see that Bob seems to be slightly more erect than he was even a few years ago. Dr. Dave plays the cue underneath his body and even when he is bent way over he is still taller than those players who put their chin on the cue and stare straight down it. Dr. Dave is tall but pretty flexible. I am 72 years old and am probably trying to use a stance I am not flexible enough to accommodate.

I have tried to get my entire body out of the line of the shot but have trouble with balance when I lean that far over and turn my head so much to the left to look straight down the cue. I am beginning to think I need to re-analyze my stance, from how I step into the shot to how tall I stand. I may just be an old inflexible guy trying to adopt a young man's stance. Some can do it. Stan Shuffett seems to get his entire body out of the line and have his head straight over the shaft.

If any of you have dealt with aging and changing your stance I would appreciate the comments.

Early 80's Reds in Houston, I Knew I had a problem with my grip. I spent a couple days watching All the pros, and how they held the cue butt. I changed and after 3 months of play, I fixed it. I would do this also. Go to a pro event and watch and video if you can.
When the Camel pro tour was in existence, I videoed every great players grip and swing. All different but similarities are prevalent. good luck
 
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