PaulHarvey
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????? With a short bridge and follow through? It happens quite often. Either that or I jump the ball. At least that's what I think is happening :/
Can't do a draw shot to save my life
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????? With a short bridge and follow through? It happens quite often. Either that or I jump the ball. At least that's what I think is happening :/
PaulHarvey
Registered
Do they have a website? I googled all forms of the keyword "pool instructors in Dayton" and got no hits. Are they in the phone book?
Yes, I can draw the ball. Just not consistently. I'm working on a new method though. Thanks much for the tips!
Harvey
Scott Lee travels all the time, he's only a few hours from Dayton. I'll bet you'll consistently be drawing the ball if you spend a day with Scott. The bonus is you'll have a much better stroke that will also help with all other aspects of your game.
I didn't even watch the video, but I can tell you that the reason the theoretical miscue limit seems higher then normal is because it's the TOP of your tip that's hitting this point, not the center or bottom. The reverse is true on follow shots, similar with side spin limits as well.
When using a typical stripe ball, the top of your tip hitting the bottom of the stripe is close to the limit, and there isn't much clearance between the stick and the cloth at that point. Hitting the cloth first will almost always result in a miscue (might get lucky and bounce up into the cue ball, maybe). But as long as your stroke is returning the tip to the point of your initial setup, your fine.
Not to mention you can get some pretty crisp draw at 1 full tip of draw - some people refer to this as 2 tips of english, but it's really 2 half tips. This would be closer to the center of the tip being at the stripe, as opposed to the maximum point which is about 1 1/2 tips (some people call this 3 tips) of draw.
Hope this helps. Several people have already suggested the 2 main causes of not getting the expected astion (not hitting low enough or decelerating through the shot), that's almost always the cause with any students I've seen as well.
Scott
You'll have to break down your game to the beginning fundamentals, you're cue is moving so much that you are pretty much randomly hitting the cueball in different areas, but not straight and not where you aim. That's why you "sometimes" jump, "sometimes" draw a bit, "sometimes" stop. To be really brutally honest, your stoke is like a blindfolded lumberjack trying to cut down a tree while swinging as fast as he can, the axe is sure moving a lot but the tree is laughing at him.
I'm sure a good instructor will help a lot, but you'll be at the baby step of hitting the cueball slowly with control.
A hard hit without a good stoke will not get you draw, it will just send the object ball bouncing off a bunch of rails. The first part is to be able to hit the cueball properly where you are actually trying to. In the video you aim to the middle then swoop down on the practice strokes, but only sometimes. Sometimes you just swing to the middle of the ball. So when you actually hit, you are not hitting the cueball where you want to, because your tip is actually not on the bottom half of the ball at contact.
You look a bit like me when I was trying to have a stroke like Efren after I started watching him play in my late teens, lots of flashy arm action with no result hehe.
I'm sure a good instructor will help a lot, but you'll be at the baby step of hitting the cueball slowly with control.
A hard hit without a good stoke will not get you draw, it will just send the object ball bouncing off a bunch of rails. The first part is to be able to hit the cueball properly where you are actually trying to. In the video you aim to the middle then swoop down on the practice strokes, but only sometimes. Sometimes you just swing to the middle of the ball. So when you actually hit, you are not hitting the cueball where you want to, because your tip is actually not on the bottom half of the ball at contact.
You look a bit like me when I was trying to have a stroke like Efren after I started watching him play in my late teens, lots of flashy arm action with no result hehe.
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I would look into finding or getting a hold of Jason Miller or Dee Adkins both great players in the central Ohio area and inquire about lessons. I am pretty sure Dee has been giving some lessons lately and Jason is from the Dayton area. Also have you been to to Airway Billiards and inquired about lessons. In closing Scott Lee travels and will bring the lessons to you in your home.
PaulHarvey
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This is a test. I'm replying to my own post to see how (or if) it shows up.
Okay, that didn't work.
Okay, that didn't work.
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PaulHarvey
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Thanks. So many people recommended Scott that I checked him out in the 'Instructor Reviews' section. There were many glowing reviews and no bad ones, so we scheduled a lesson.
The stellar reviews are well deserved; I got way more than my money's worth! (Actually, my girlfriend's money
)PaulHarvey
Registered
Thanks much Scott, that cleared up much of the confusion. However, it's a moot point now (and will be for a while), as I'm giving up on draw and focusing on that new stroke you taught me.
I'm doing the drills religiously and have got them down to where I can execute each one flawlessly seven out of seven times, consistently. However, any time I introduce an object ball into the mix, the only thing I do consistently is miss. Even shots where the OB is mere inches from the pocket.
Don't know why that is but I can only assume that, as much as I try to ignore it, the OB is messing with my head. So I'm giving up all other forms of shooting 'til I get the stroke down to where I'm doing it in my sleep. My plan is to out-smart the OB by training my body to do the stroke without my brain getting involved.
So HAH, take that object ball, evil spawn of Satan that you are!
Thanks again Scott; I had a blast that day. Oh, and I had a tad bit of trouble with your DVD's myself. I found a way around it though. Will explain next time we talk.
Later,
Harvey
PaulHarvey
Registered
Thanks a lot for the good tips, not to mention the time & trouble you took to respond. I've learned much since I made the original post from so many helpful people here. And I'm getting much better as a result.
As for my stroke, it evolved on its own in my youth. I never watched anyone or was taught by anyone; I learned by myself, shooting on the table in my basement. I think that's much of my problem today :/
Thanks again,
Harvey
Paul,
As for drawing the ball, even though I did not watch the video, I've found that it sometimes takes a different stroke on different days to get the desired draw on the cue ball. I don't mean different forces of hit. I mean a totally different type of stroke. I know the physics that can & will be argued & they are the truth. However, how one delivers those physics principles can vary & how one delivers those levels of force are what I am talking about.
Some times 'hitting the cue ball low with a very 'level' cue & a pop stroke works well on some days & then on others a more thorough finish or follow through is required. Sometimes even a change of cue stick with a different tip is beneficial. What hardness of tip are you using? You might want to go to a softer tip. (I know, I know, a hard tip can put as much spin on the ball as a soft tip. But... the stroke forces required are different due to different compression levels.) Sometimes elevating the butt end of the cue a bit can have beneficial results. All of these differences are due to different conditions from day to day or table to table or the perception of the shooter.
Now before I get jumped on, I am talking about controlling my draw. I can always draw the ball but sometimes getting control of the amount of draw is a bit elusive. I play near to New Orleans & the humidity varies quite often. I once changed shafts with a different tip & the control was there immediately. I know I would have gotten it under control eventually with the other shaft but why wait & work when a simple tip change can bring it all under control.
In my opinion, it is easier to control where one hits the ball on the vertical axis if one utilizes a straight line away from & into the cue ball without the cue tip moving down, up & down during the stroke. That is not to say that one can not be proficient with that type of stroke as quite a few certainly are.
I would suggest that you focus ONLY on stroking the cue ball to get it to draw with no focus on making the object ball at all. Then, when you get the ball drawing back, start trying to send the ball toward the pocket & getting the cue ball to draw. Again, don't worry about making the ball. just send it toward the pocket & get the cue ball to draw back. Once you are comfortable & confident that the cue ball will draw back, then focus on making the ball with that draw stroke.
I don't know if any of this helps, but I certainly hope that it does. The first or second thing that my Dad taught me when I was 13 yrs. old was how to stop & draw the ball. I can hardly imagine playing the game without being able to do that at will whenever one wants or needs to do so.
The best of luck in you finding your way to get it done.
Rick
PS Paul, another idea that might help is to soft stroke a striped ball toward an object ball frozen on the rail at the other end of the table & notice the back spin on it & when it turns over & starts to roll. Stroke one progressively harder until you can get it to go the full length of the table with out turning over. Then put an object ball about two diamonds away & stroke it the same. See what happens. If need be stroke it a bit harder. Keep in mind that it is not just about how hard & low to hit the cue ball. It's about the spin to forward speed ratio that one can put on the ball.
As for drawing the ball, even though I did not watch the video, I've found that it sometimes takes a different stroke on different days to get the desired draw on the cue ball. I don't mean different forces of hit. I mean a totally different type of stroke. I know the physics that can & will be argued & they are the truth. However, how one delivers those physics principles can vary & how one delivers those levels of force are what I am talking about.
Some times 'hitting the cue ball low with a very 'level' cue & a pop stroke works well on some days & then on others a more thorough finish or follow through is required. Sometimes even a change of cue stick with a different tip is beneficial. What hardness of tip are you using? You might want to go to a softer tip. (I know, I know, a hard tip can put as much spin on the ball as a soft tip. But... the stroke forces required are different due to different compression levels.) Sometimes elevating the butt end of the cue a bit can have beneficial results. All of these differences are due to different conditions from day to day or table to table or the perception of the shooter.
Now before I get jumped on, I am talking about controlling my draw. I can always draw the ball but sometimes getting control of the amount of draw is a bit elusive. I play near to New Orleans & the humidity varies quite often. I once changed shafts with a different tip & the control was there immediately. I know I would have gotten it under control eventually with the other shaft but why wait & work when a simple tip change can bring it all under control.
In my opinion, it is easier to control where one hits the ball on the vertical axis if one utilizes a straight line away from & into the cue ball without the cue tip moving down, up & down during the stroke. That is not to say that one can not be proficient with that type of stroke as quite a few certainly are.
I would suggest that you focus ONLY on stroking the cue ball to get it to draw with no focus on making the object ball at all. Then, when you get the ball drawing back, start trying to send the ball toward the pocket & getting the cue ball to draw. Again, don't worry about making the ball. just send it toward the pocket & get the cue ball to draw back. Once you are comfortable & confident that the cue ball will draw back, then focus on making the ball with that draw stroke.
I don't know if any of this helps, but I certainly hope that it does. The first or second thing that my Dad taught me when I was 13 yrs. old was how to stop & draw the ball. I can hardly imagine playing the game without being able to do that at will whenever one wants or needs to do so.
The best of luck in you finding your way to get it done.
Rick
PS Paul, another idea that might help is to soft stroke a striped ball toward an object ball frozen on the rail at the other end of the table & notice the back spin on it & when it turns over & starts to roll. Stroke one progressively harder until you can get it to go the full length of the table with out turning over. Then put an object ball about two diamonds away & stroke it the same. See what happens. If need be stroke it a bit harder. Keep in mind that it is not just about how hard & low to hit the cue ball. It's about the spin to forward speed ratio that one can put on the ball.
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PaulHarvey
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I'm relatively new to Dayton, having moved here about a year ago. So I never heard of Airway Billiards 'til now. Thanks for the tip! I've Googled them and I do know where Needmore is
As for lessons, I've since met up with Scott Lee and he helped a great deal! I think I'm good for a looong while
Thanks again,
Harvey
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PaulHarvey
Registered
It's going to be a looong time before I get efficient at 12" since I can't even get consistent draw on 4". I tried your 'finger & thumb' grip 103 times right after you posted this (sorry for the delayed response) and got the same results I get with my regular grip: inconsistency.
Thanks, but I'm giving up on draw 'til I perfect a new stroke Scott Lee taught me last week.
Later,
Harvey
Paul,
When one is 4" from the ball there can be a subconscious fear of stroking through for fear of the cue hitting either the object ball or the cue ball. Try elevating the cue & hitting down on the ball but below the equator with a short but firm pop stroke. I many times wind up over drawing the ball with this type of stroke as I don't use it very often but it does come up from time to time. Please try it.
Good luck.
Rick
PS What hardness of tip are you using? I have been spinning my ball for 47 yrs. since I was 13 & I have always used a soft tip. When one wants to spin the tennis ball alot it is easier to do when the strings are not strung too tight. Tight = hard. Loose = soft.
When one is 4" from the ball there can be a subconscious fear of stroking through for fear of the cue hitting either the object ball or the cue ball. Try elevating the cue & hitting down on the ball but below the equator with a short but firm pop stroke. I many times wind up over drawing the ball with this type of stroke as I don't use it very often but it does come up from time to time. Please try it.
Good luck.
Rick
PS What hardness of tip are you using? I have been spinning my ball for 47 yrs. since I was 13 & I have always used a soft tip. When one wants to spin the tennis ball alot it is easier to do when the strings are not strung too tight. Tight = hard. Loose = soft.
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PaulHarvey
Registered
I have no idea. How can you tell? Several ques came with my table, plus I have my own. All the tips look and feel the same to me.
hmmm...interesting. My room is often quite humid and I'm playing on a slooooow table. What speed of stroke and level of elevation would you suggest for those conditions?
But how did you know which shafts and tips to switch to? In other words, which conditions require which type of equipment?
Thanks for the tips but I'm giving up on draw for now. I recently learned a new stroke (actually the first stroke I ever learned) and am working on perfecting it. I'll start on draw again afterwards.
Thank you again! I'll try all this after I get that stroke down
Harvey
I have no idea. How can you tell? Several ques came with my table, plus I have my own. All the tips look and feel the same to me.
If you drop a shaft or a cue from a certain height onto a hard floor you'll get an idea but I don't think you need to do that unless you just want to find out which of the ones you have might have a softer tip. If they all feel the same to you then they may very well all be the same.
hmmm...interesting. My room is often quite humid and I'm playing on a slooooow table. What speed of stroke and level of elevation would you suggest for those conditions?
How can anyone correctly tell you a speed & elevation without personally knowing the conditions? You've received some good advice, you just need to experiment to find what works best for you. I have always preferred a cue as level as possible with a loose free flowing wrist action quick stroke so as to get as much spin on the ball with the least amount of forward momentum on the ball. It is about the spin to 'speed' ratio of the cue ball. There are other physical methods to get the same results.
But how did you know which shafts and tips to switch to? In other words, which conditions require which type of equipment?
The ball only knows the physics that is applied to it. One can usually adapt one's stroke to the conditions but if an equipment change can speed up & widen the margin of error then why not simply make a change in equipment. On the particular day to which I was referring, I was using a shaft with a medium tip & the temperature had just dropped a bit. I would assume the humidity lowered as well but not necessarily. In any case I would not get the draw that I wanted one time so I would apply a little more spin the next time & would get too much. So I went to a shaft with a super soft tip & I got the draw that I wanted with the stroke that I wanted to use. Your question makes it look like a very simple question to answer & it could be if all other things are equal in the comparison. My point being that I could get more than enough draw with either tip but it is about the amount of force at a certain tip below center that is required with one tip vs another & what force stroke one is comfortable playing with.
Thanks for the tips but I'm giving up on draw for now. I recently learned a new stroke (actually the first stroke I ever learned) and am working on perfecting it. I'll start on draw again afterwards.
If you wait until you perfect a stroke you may never attempt to draw a ball again. How often is a human being perfect? What you choose to do is certainly up to you. I just know that I was drawing the ball the same day my Dad showed me how when I was 13 years old. I don't think my stroke was perfect then or is it perfect now.
In any case, I certainly wish you good luck & good results.
Thank you again! I'll try all this after I get that stroke down
Harvey
Best Wishes to you,
Rick
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Put up another video, would be nice to see the progression.
This still means you are not hitting the cueball where you are trying to aim it at. My son took a while to learn the right stoke to get a good draw shot, he started playing pool at about 8, and even with several good players showing him things (OK, mostly me LOL, along with lots of instructional and match videos), it was not till he was about 12 that he could draw the cueball more than a foot all the time. Take a look at this at 2:20 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVkV079yEFI
You can see exactly where his practice strokes end up in, each time, level and to the same spot. At 13, he drew that cueball 9 feet. Although he played the wrong position for the shot
he did make a pretty good out with a few good shots. Another good part to see is at 19:00, he hits the shot soft but with a good stroke that draws the cueball across the table. You can see how soft he hit that to get that much result. When you were trying in that video, you were hitting 5 times harder with 5 times less effect due to the wrong contact point.
I saw your video, you are about 2 feet taller and 200 lb heavier than him LOL, you should be able to draw the ball around the ROOM much less the table with a good stroke LOL. In your first video, you can see where your tip goes to, and that the tip is moving up and down as you approach the cueball contact point. That is what is causing the random results you get. I hope Scott's instruction will change that for you, it can be very frustrating to play this game when things seem to not work, with your desire to get better I'm sure you'll break though this stage and go on to some great results.
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Paul,
Once your stroke drills are complete you need to give in to the new stroke and trust it.
Once you get to ball pocketing drills focus on the object ball like you normally did in the past. Trust the stroke and just make the shot.
You will know when/if you stroked it wrong, and if that keeps happening then go back to some stroke drills..
You will not miss the easy shots if you do this.
For draw shots try to shoot a lot softer at the low portion of the ball. You are trying to power them and power is not what it takes. You can full table draw with 1/3rd of the force you are using.
Once your stroke drills are complete you need to give in to the new stroke and trust it.
Once you get to ball pocketing drills focus on the object ball like you normally did in the past. Trust the stroke and just make the shot.
You will know when/if you stroked it wrong, and if that keeps happening then go back to some stroke drills..
You will not miss the easy shots if you do this.
For draw shots try to shoot a lot softer at the low portion of the ball. You are trying to power them and power is not what it takes. You can full table draw with 1/3rd of the force you are using.
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