[QUOTEer arm do most of the work for this stroke.
Willie Mosconi liked to shoot a sixteenth of an inch below center, letting the curvature of his cue tip create stun. There may be an audible pop made when you play this stroke.
A stun-run through is another Mosconi favorite. Aim just above center and run the cue ball just through where the nearby object ball sits now.
I learned this one from Nick Varner in person - the "dead stun spot" is about halfway between the center and bottom of the cue ball. Jack up the cue slightly with your stroke hand. Stroke medium or medium-soft over most cue ball-object ball distances. The ball stops like magic. At close range, you can strike through cue ball center to stop the cue ball after full impact with an object ball. But over this or most any other distance, we can aim lower than center cue ball and/or hit harder if not using the dead stun spot.
Here's a (some pros use this) pro way to play topspin, called "walking the ladder". Aim and practice stroke center ball, take the final backstroke, and on the final forward stroke only, come up to hit the cue ball high. The stick angle helps the immediate forward roll.
2) Have you read on this thread that it was called "carabao english" for quite a while when world-beating Filipino pros were showing it off prominently? I can't give you citations for what pros have told me in person, but here's one from an article:
According to Earl Strickland, currently ranked #4 and winner of dozens of pro events, "I've played so much that I don't have to think about it. But I also spin the balls in, as I think many of the pros do; they're using so much english all the time. Pros spin the ball in the hole and that's mostly from feel. If you're really going to learn to aim, you have to know better how to spin the ball, and what effect that's having on the object ball. Amateurs who don't spin the ball will have an easier time with straight aiming."
Source:
http://www.sfbilliards.com/Misc/PnB_aiming.pdf
Before anyone says "He's speaking of throwing cuts in, not spinning them in," understand he's one of any number of pros who sometimes aligns a cut as a full shot along the line of centers than flicks on the stroke to cut the ball in, and if you think about it--I hope you people will (!)--starting center-to-center then flicking the cut in ALWAYS gives outside (anti-throw!) spin to the shot!
3) It's hard to see when a pro puts up a quarter tip of flicked or swooped english. But you've never seen a pro in person, or online, cut a ball in with spin so that their cue stick follow through was a diamond or more off the shot line? You marveled at straight pro strokes but can't think of a pro who addresses the dead center base of the cue ball then swoops up for center ball/follow? If they address the base of the ball on 100% of regular shots (no interference balls, etc.) how do they use any english at all without swooping for english?
I'm sure in the future I'll be continuing to dispute your assumptions. I've decided to give up on this thread but I'd like to say a few things before departing.
I chose this particular post to reply to because it displays the inconsistancies and inaccuracies of just about everything you say. And IMO that's not even the worst of it. You come out with stuff which in many instances is plain everyday wrong but the worst part is that the things you throw out there (right, wrong or subject to interpretation) have no bearing whatsoever on what was stated or asked. And you act like they're known facts and that the person(s) replying to your posts either can't read nor understand what you've written.
I have news for you. You don't think 3 levels above the rest of us. That would immediately become clear to anyone who took a look at your material on liveabout.com.
Here's a small sample--
"Some of today's tips I cannot recall seeing anywhere else before in print or online in the form in which I state them, and we About.com Guides love bringing you thousands, even hundreds of thousands of insights, to our many millions of readers. Enjoy!"
"Use a near level stroke and you can practically forget about adjusting target aim when using English"
There are many more if anyone cares to check it out.
This one's my favorite.
"Secrets Of The Pros
Yes, the pros use secret aiming systems. More I will not say right now (unless you are paying my usual lesson fee starting at $500 U.S. for a session)! Although another hint I can give you, as shown on articles elsewhere here at this About.com expert guidance website, is this--my stance is designed so that nothing is in the way of making pure center ball contact to sink the next object ball.
That's about as close as I can come to telling you my secret aiming pool systems for better billiards!
Have fun and shoot me an e-mail if you want to discuss this further."
I had planned to take some specific parts of this post, break them down and tell you what I think. Why should I waste the time, if you reply it'll likely be in the form of meandering off on another tangent.
Oh what the hell, let's give it a shot. Occasionally people suprise you.
"Willie Mosconi liked to shoot a sixteenth of an inch below center,
letting the curvature of his cue tip create stun. There may be an
audible pop made when you play this stroke."
Ist of all, how do you know this? You never talked to him. You never saw him play. I suppose there're a few people still alive who might have knowledge of this. Did one of them tell you this? I'm much older than you, have actually seen Mosconi play (approx. 20 times) and talked to him a couple times but I'm not able to confirm that. The only person I can think of who might know is Peter Burrows. I'll ask him when I see him.
But, my main question here concerns this "audible pop"
Was that when he did it back then or is it now? To be truthful I have no idea what Willie used for a tip. I only mention that because it's my assumption (correct me if I'm wrong) that the sound you might hear when striking the CB is largely dependant on the type of tip (more than anything) and possibly the shaft. I don't think hitting a sixteenth of an inch "below" center (as opposed to, let's say, 1/16th "above" center) has much to do with the sound of the strike.
And then there's this" "A stun-run through is another Mosconi favorite. Aim just above center
and run the cue ball just through where the nearby object ball sits now."
I'll also ask Peter if this was a Mosconi favorite but again, my main question is with the 2nd sentence in your statement-----"Aim just above center
and run the cue ball just through where the nearby object ball sits now."
That is an incomplete and/or inaccurate statement. Any reasonably competent player (not to mention, instructor) would know that this particular shot (as most shots are) is speed and distance dependant.
I'll leave the Nick Varner/dead stun spot one alone other than to say it's not magic and again, stun and stun run through shots are speed and distance related. At times there is a "range" of speed and vertical hit that works but to say a particular speed and hit works in "most" instances is flat out incorrect.
Finally, let's talk about the "carabao english" which you say the world-beating Filipino pros (you make it sound like they came over here and completely revolutionized the way everyone applied english to the CB . Gimme a break) were showing it off. You use that as a fancy name for swooping.
Then, to prove your point, you quote Earl Strickland in a 24 year old article. Just a little joke but I didn't realize Earl was Filipino.I thought he was from N. Carolina. Just goes to prove you can't believe everything you read.
Beyond that, the article had nothing to do with swooping. It was an article asking a number of pro pool players how they aimed.
The gist of what Earl said was that if you use a lot of english,like
he and other pro players do, then you have to adjust your aim.
The terminology (spinning balls in) he used could just as easily be described as throwing balls in. It's one and the same thing, it's just terminology.
It's simply that you use english to direct the OB on a little different path than it would take if it was hit with no english.
I happen to call that throwing balls in. Earl calls it spinning balls in. Whatever, it's the same damn thing. To say it's something else is absurd.
Again, I'm not an instructor. I don't think PJ's an instructor either. And I'll be honest, some of the stuff he puts on here is over my head. The most recent diagram he put up is an example. I don't have a clue what it means.
But my instincts tell me he's probably right.
But as far as swooping goes he and I have (maybe in different words) basically said the same thing. The only thing that has bearing on CB action (ignoring speed and quality of delivery) is tip direction AT CONTACT. I don't care if your tip started in Florida, swung around Jupiter and then dived towards the Sun.
You describe yourself as an instructor. What exactly does that mean? Are you a "certified" instructor?
I'm probably wrong but as far as I know if you pay 400.00? and apply somewhere? you can get certified?
I don't know, is that correct?
I can tell you about the one guy who I know is a certified instructor and deals primarily with junior players. I've watched a number his sessions.
He's a really nice guy and I admire his dedication but to be perfectly frank, he's a terrible instructor.
His knowledge is limited, the kids do things blatantly wrong and if he even sees that, he does nothing to try and correct them.
It's kind of the same as when you think about commentators on pool videos. There're threads about it on here and the consensus is usually indictative that the commentary is, not all that great.
Why is that? I suppose a simple answer would be that they're not aware of the subtleties of the game. Of course some people are more adept than others at conveying something they know in an easily understandable way. Regardless of that though, no one will be able to describe what's going on if they themselves are not aware of it.
While most rules or concepts about what happens on a pool table can usually be described in fairly simple terms that even non pool players can understand, in many cases there are little, very subtle details that have an effect on the outcome.
I don't know how many times I've heard a commentator say "well, he's in good shape because he can cut the 3 in and draw over by the rail to have a good angle on the 4". Unfortunately he's completely unaware of the fact that if they hit the shot hard enough to maintain backspin then they'll over run position by 3 feet.
Then the player does something different and they're like "oh, I'm surprised they shot it that way"
I guess it's real simple. If the commentators knowledge about the way the balls work is lacking then his commentary will be lacking.
Something tells me the same is true for "instructors"