Controlling The Mass

One Pocket John

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
A while back I started a thread on the way Alex Pagulayan was stroking (pushing) the cue ball. From what I saw it appeared to look like that. Then watching SVB a trillion times I noticed that he appeared to be using a punch stroke on the cue ball.
I have been watching these two and others and have wandered, what in the heck are they doing.

A year are so ago, a pocket billiard coach,friend and fisherman from New Jersey sent me a word document about controlling the mass. I'll be honest here and say I read it but didn't fully understand it's meaning.

I'm pasting this word document in the hopes that it may help others to understand what SVB, Dennis O, Alex P. are actually doing with their stroke on the cue ball.

Begin: Posted without the owners permission. If the owner should see this post and ask to have it deleted, I will.

Controlling the Mass: An Aircraft Carrier takes 4 nautical miles to stop at full throttle if you shut the power. A small boat takes a few ft in comparison.

It's the mass of the cue we are propelling. If you pull back shorter on the final delivery stroke it's easier to control the mass. Accelerate through the desired length with a smooth transition from beginning to end and clear the cue naturally. As you have seen it's a smooth stroke, but when you mention short stroke technique, automatically everyone thinks it’s a punch stroke, they couldn't be further off base.

Watch Orcullo, Corteza, Pagulayan and many others; the key is to shorten the back swing, and a smooth transition. You can have a 20 inch bridge, pull back short and deliver with required follow through, which is also fairly short, it almost looks like a push stroke, it's sort of 1/2 and 1/2, yet very smooth.

You can get a good feel for it if you shorten your bridge more than normal and practice with that for however long it takes you to get the feel. Then go back to your normal bridge and just pull back shorter and deliver.
I like the longer bridge short stroke technique as it feels loose, too short a bridge feels crammed to me.

You are more accurate and have better control of the stroke with this technique.

It's very difficult to deliver like Shane does on a consistent basis with that long delivery. It has hurt him in world championships not using the short stroke on fast tables. He loses his cue ball due to the mass and has ended up on the 50 yard line many times to cost him the match. As great as he is, and he is one fantastic player, he lacks the the short stroke,imagine when he dials that in.

Short Stroking, Upstroking, Backhand English, 3 tools every player should have.

End.

I have been working with the above for quite a while. I remembered on one of C.J.'s videos where he talks about loosing the feel of the cue. He suggests using just the pad of the thumb and index finger to practice with until you get the feel back. Doesn't mention anything about the cue mass.

Now when I talk about cue mass I'm talking about the mass you have in your grip hand and the cue mass behind your grip hand.

This shows up quite well when SVB is playing on a table 4.5 x 9.0 or larger. He uses an extension that increases the mass of the cue behind his hand, not necessarily the weight of the cue.

The next time your practicing set your bridge hand a couple of inches away from the cue ball and just focus on controlling the mass of the cue to strike the cue ball.

Learn to control the mass and you will learn how to control the game no matter what aiming method you use.

Okay, I'm done.
 
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goettlicher

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Great article, nice post!

Mass is only one factor.

What does he say about velocity?

randyg
 

Dan White

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Good post!

I've always had the thought that occasionally playing in "the zone" was mostly a matter of having all the variables clicking in the right direction for some reason on a particular night. It's like you are doing everything right at the same time by accident and you just can't miss. I think shortening the back stroke is one of those variables that a player might start doing almost by accident. It definitely makes it easier to pocket balls. The problem is that if he doesn't recognize that he has shortened the back stroke he is likely to abandon it after a bathroom break and all of a sudden he just isn't hitting them quite the same.
 

One Pocket John

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
While on the subject of controlling the mass of the cue.

Reminds me of when I was taking 3 cushion lessons from Harry Sims (1980's 3 cushion champion) RIP my friend.

Harry was giving me instruction (mid to late 90's) one day and he stopped me and said "is it easier to push the cue (mass) to the cue ball or is it easier to pull the cue (mass) to the cue ball"?

I didn't know how to answer that question then. Never even ever gave it any thought, I just shot pool. I was clearly pushing the cue (mass) to the cue ball.

So, when your down in the shooting position ask yourself, am I pushing the mass or pulling the mass. It should become clear that it's way easier to pull the mass to the cue ball.

If the mass of the cue was in front of your grip hand, then you would push the cue. The mass of the cue is in and behind your grip hand so you have to pull.

Think of pitching a softball underhanded or pitching a horseshoe.

John :)
 
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bbb

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
While on the subject of controlling the mass of the cue.

Reminds me of when I was taking 3 cushion lessons from Harry Sims (1980's 3 cushion champion) RIP my friend.

Harry was giving me instruction (mid to late 90's) one day and he stopped me and said "is it easier to push the cue (mass) to the cue ball or is it easier to pull the cue (mass) to the cue ball"?



John :)

Is it easier to push or pull the cue THRU the cue ball ?
 

One Pocket John

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Is it easier to push or pull the cue THRU the cue ball ?

It is easier to pull the cue mass to the cue ball. You can control the pull depending on how much/ far you want the mass to continue forward. The finish of the forward pull thru the cue ball ,(could be an inch or several inches) depends on where you want the cue ball to go. Just depends on where you want to stop the forward pull of the mass.

Watch SVB he is an expert with control of the cue mass to and thru the cue ball. Especially his 10 ball break, he is pulling the heck out of the mass of the cue. You will see where he makes the transition from pulling the cue back (slight pause) and then pulling the mass forward.

John :)
 
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sixpack

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I've been thinking about this quite a bit since you posted it and going back to the times when I've played the best and gotten in the zone...I've had a shorter, more controlled backswing and a longer follow through. Definitely food for thought.
 

LAMas

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Follow through effect?

The contact with the CB is a few milliseconds. The CB is sent accelerating away from the tip after impact.

Thanks for the posts.
 

goettlicher

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Follow through effect?

The contact with the CB is a few milliseconds. The CB is sent accelerating away from the tip after impact.

Thanks for the posts.

I believe that the cue ball is already deccelerating after impact.

randyg
 

Dan White

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I believe that the cue ball is already deccelerating after impact.

randyg

Obviously he meant negative acceleration. :wink:

But why let science and logic enter into the aiming forum now? If he says the ball has positive acceleration after impact, who are we to say? Maybe you just haven't taken it to the table and tried enough.
 

LAMas

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I believe that the cue ball is already deccelerating after impact.

randyg


Newton's Laws Applied to Collisions

Newton's third law of motion is naturally applied to collisions between two objects. In a collision between two objects, both objects experience forces that are equal in magnitude and opposite in direction. Such forces often cause one object to speed up (gain momentum) and the other object to slow down (lose momentum).

Q. Is there any difference between speed up and accelerate?

A. No, but speed up as a term is less formal than accelerate.
 

Dan White

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Newton's Laws Applied to Collisions

Newton's third law of motion is naturally applied to collisions between two objects. In a collision between two objects, both objects experience forces that are equal in magnitude and opposite in direction. Such forces often cause one object to speed up (gain momentum) and the other object to slow down (lose momentum).

Q. Is there any difference between speed up and accelerate?

A. No, but speed up as a term is less formal than accelerate.

He's nit picking your choice of words. You said the cb accelerates AFTER impact with the tip. Technically, cb acceleration occurs DURING impact. After impact, when the tip is no longer touching the cb, the cb is at it's maximum velocity and begins to slow down immediately mostly due to friction with the cloth.

But everybody knows what you meant.
 

ShortBusRuss

Short Bus Russ - C Player
Silver Member
While on the subject of controlling the mass of the cue.

So, when your down in the shooting position ask yourself, am I pushing the mass or pulling the mass. It should become clear that it's way easier to pull the mass to the cue ball.

If the mass of the cue was in front of your grip hand, then you would push the cue. The mass of the cue is in and behind your grip hand so you have to pull.

Think of pitching a softball underhanded or pitching a horseshoe.

John :)

I have often felt when I was playing my best that I was simply starting the cue on a forward swing and then letting the cue's weight pull it forward, and that my hand/arm was being "pulled" through the shotline by the cue's weight.

Such that if you attempt to "push" the cue forward, you will invariably guide it to the left or right, as it is nearly impossible for us to drive our hand/arm in a straight line, but if the cue is "falling forward", then the hand is naturally pulled in a straight line.
 

One Pocket John

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I have often felt when I was playing my best that I was simply starting the cue on a forward swing and then letting the cue's weight pull it forward, and that my hand/arm was being "pulled" through the shotline by the cue's weight.



Such that if you attempt to "push" the cue forward, you will invariably guide it to the left or right, as it is nearly impossible for us to drive our hand/arm in a straight line, but if the cue is "falling forward", then the hand is naturally pulled in a straight line.



Yup. That's what I'm saying Russ. Let the mass (which is behind the grip hand) of the cue do the work. The mass can be allowed to travel as far foreword as you let it.
John


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

LAMas

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Physics: If I hit an object ball with a cue, can the ball go faster than the speed that I'm stroking the cue?

Yes, the ball can. Assuming an elastic collision, both kinetic energy and momentum of the system must be conserved. Focusing on the small period of time surrounding the hit of the ball, obeying these two conservation laws means that the ball can shoot off with a much higher velocity than the cue, because the cue has a much larger mass (and benefits from the mass of the person holding the cue).
 

Jucas

Registered
Yup. That's what I'm saying Russ. Let the mass (which is behind the grip hand) of the cue do the work. The mass can be allowed to travel as far foreword as you let it.
John


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
So what are some good exercises/drills to develop a feel for this?
 

Dan White

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Physics: If I hit an object ball with a cue, can the ball go faster than the speed that I'm stroking the cue?

Yes, the ball can. Assuming an elastic collision, both kinetic energy and momentum of the system must be conserved. Focusing on the small period of time surrounding the hit of the ball, obeying these two conservation laws means that the ball can shoot off with a much higher velocity than the cue, because the cue has a much larger mass (and benefits from the mass of the person holding the cue).

Momentum: M1V1 = M2V2 (M is mass and v is velocity). That's all you need to know. bowling ball vs ping pong ball lol.
 
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