Reducing shaft diameter

StrokeAnalyzer

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I want to reduce the size of a 13mm shaft down to 12.5mm. I have a lathe, but do not have a taper bar. I assume its possible to just sand it down and watch the size along the length until its where I want it.

Whats the recommended steps in sandpaper grit?
Length of time between sanding to improve stability?
Is it best to remove the ferrule during the resize? I want to change the ferrule out anyway.

Thanks for any suggestions/techniques or tips!
 

Russell Cues

Maverick Cue Builder
Silver Member
Well once a shaft is "finished" you no longer have original turning centers to work with and using a router/lathe wouldnt be the best idea.

You could start with 220 wet/dry and Me personally I wouldnt take it past 12.75 the first time and even that is at the limits for one "sanding" IMO. Measure the diameter often and make sure you dont make a habbit of sanding a lot behind the ferrule or you risk making an "hour glass" right behind the ferrule. Use even passes ! Patience is the paramount ! Dont let the wood get hot, if it feels even warm, stop and let it cool for a min or so.

After the first sanding make sure you apply a good coat of shaft sealer and let it hang out for atleast a week. Check for any movement after the weeks up, two weeks would be even better.

After that you can take it down to 12.5mm, start using 320 and measure often, then when you are close drop down to 400 then when its right at the edge start using say 1000 and finer to finish. Coat with shaft sealer and go from there with burnishing and waxing etc whatever you prefer.
 
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cuejo

Cue Repair tech
Silver Member
If you have a lathe the process is straightforward.
Chuck up the shaft with the ferrule just outside the chuck
Center drill the tip
Pull the shaft through about 5" or so and put a live center into the center drilled tip.
Use your cutter and take a couple small passes through the tip, ferrule and into the shaft an inch or so.
After you have reached your target ( I agree that .25 mm is good)
Hand sand to match the taper, then clean seal and wax the entire shaft.
At least that's how I do it.
You will also need to replace the tip...
 

Tommy-D

World's best B player...
Silver Member
One of my customers bought a new Schon a few days ago,but asked me to change the ferrule from Ivorine-4 to real ivory,and wanted it turned down to 12.5 from 13mm. I tell him I can't actually cut it down but can sand it like that,he says that's ok with him.

I quote him a price,he agrees.

He asked me if I can have it ready by the next morning. I tell him no that won't work for me,I'm awake and want to hit some balls with it so I'll know it's right,have it ready TONIGHT. I left with it and started on it in 20 min.

I did it this way because I've started trying to pin down how long it takes me to do common processes like this,the same as mechanics,guitar shops,etc.

I've been wanting to actually use a stop watch,so I did. The top guns for doing tournament repairs can quote a specific time frame if you catch them at the right time,so I set myself a target,even factoring in drying time for the glue I decided to use.

I'm still an hour ahead of schedule,and I've got it screwed onto my Schon butt,admiring my work,I'm DONE,or so I thought.

After a pause for the cause I go back and measure everything again,and even though it was as nice as I could make it,I still haven't met his standard.

He asked for a 12.5 reduction,and I told him it might change the taper,he said try to keep it the same taper just make it smaller.

My finished product was way off. I only reduced the diameter at the ferrule .006,while maintaining taper and left no seam that could be felt,and due to no glue line you couldn't tell this wasn't the original ferrule.

I went back and redid it and got within .002 of my goal,still maintaning the profile.

It went back to as nice as I could make it,and still delivered on time.

Working time was under 2 hours :cool:. Tommy D.
 

whammo57

Kim Walker
Silver Member
If you have a lathe the process is straightforward.
Chuck up the shaft with the ferrule just outside the chuck
Center drill the tip
Pull the shaft through about 5" or so and put a live center into the center drilled tip.
Use your cutter and take a couple small passes through the tip, ferrule and into the shaft an inch or so.
After you have reached your target ( I agree that .25 mm is good)
Hand sand to match the taper, then clean seal and wax the entire shaft.
At least that's how I do it.
You will also need to replace the tip...

Sounds like a very good method........... I shall steal it..............LOL

thanks

Kim
 

StrokeAnalyzer

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
If you have a lathe the process is straightforward.
Chuck up the shaft with the ferrule just outside the chuck
Center drill the tip
Pull the shaft through about 5" or so and put a live center into the center drilled tip.
Use your cutter and take a couple small passes through the tip, ferrule and into the shaft an inch or so.
After you have reached your target ( I agree that .25 mm is good)
Hand sand to match the taper, then clean seal and wax the entire shaft.
At least that's how I do it.
You will also need to replace the tip...

For a .5mm reduction... you would take off .25mm of tip/ferrule, sand shaft to match taper. Then you would take another .25mm of tip/ferrule and sand shaft to match taper again? Seems like a good idea...with a week rest between those 2 steps. Have you had any problem matching that step thats created in the shaft?
 

cuejo

Cue Repair tech
Silver Member
I'll take a quarter mm and then if the customer wants more, they will have to make a return in 6 weeks :)
 

KJ Cues

Pro Cue Builder & Repair
Silver Member
Months, weeks, days even hours.
Seriously people, you're making the client wait unnecessarily.
I do a T/D in 20 minutes.
'Center-drill the tip'? I've never heard of this practice.
This is where a concave live-center earns it's keep.
Do you charge for a new tip with every T/D?

Tommy-D,
Are you aware that ivory weighs less than Ivorine4?
That's the L/D upgrade for a Schon. Lol

Whatever guys, to each his own.

KJ
 

cuejo

Cue Repair tech
Silver Member
Months, weeks, days even hours.
Seriously people, you're making the client wait unnecessarily.
I do a T/D in 20 minutes.
'Center-drill the tip'? I've never heard of this practice.
This is where a concave live-center earns it's keep.
Do you charge for a new tip with every T/D?

Tommy-D,
Are you aware that ivory weighs less than Ivorine4?
That's the L/D upgrade for a Schon. Lol

Whatever guys, to each his own.

KJ

I tend to make them wait for one simple reason
Customers rarely know what they want...
Most turndowns I see are happy with a .25mm reduction.
I absolutely charge for a new tip as well.
My ruining of the original tip is a small price to pay to get the results I desire.
My concave centers are too bulky to get my cutter by as well.
 

KJ Cues

Pro Cue Builder & Repair
Silver Member
I can see why they would tend to be satisfied.
A new tip every 6 wks could get expensive.
Your live-center shouldn't even come into play other than to support the shaft while you're sanding on it.
Let's see if this helps.
Turn your ferrule down to size first thing, tip & all.
If it's linen based, turn it a thou or two undersize and seal it with CA.
That will get you back close to your desired T/D diameter.
Now proceed with your T/D. I don't see how the concave L/C is in the way.
You've got the length of the ferrule btwn it and what you're sanding on.
I always turn the ferrule first then bring the shaft down to match.
The tool-bit barely kisses the wood. From there it's all sand-paper.

I've got 4 T/Ds to do in the morning. They will be delivered that day.
I think the difference may be in the fact that I've done several thousand T/Ds.
You tend to develop efficient techniques and procedures.
I don't have time to replace tips.

KJ
 

opiesbro

Big Al Customs
Silver Member
I have actually thought about making a concave live center that is small enough in diameter that I can use it with my router. That way just as KJ is explaining the tip doesn't have to come off and the original center is kept.

Sent from my XT901 using Tapatalk 2
 

Craig

Custom Cue-Repair
Silver Member
This is just a suggestion but when you turn down a shaft the first thing I tell my customers is that by turning it down there is a possibility the ferrule could crack at any time after the shaft is turned down smaller.

Because after the tip-ferrule-shaft is cut to desired size with your lathe then sanded the rest of way to size, you have no ideal how thick the ferrule wall is to start with then after you cut it down smaller it may be real thin.

So if it cracks 1-day or 2-weeks later don't come back asking me to replace it free of charge.

Make them understand by turning the shaft smaller it also makes the ferrule wall thinner and the possibility of cracking is greater than it is at the present time.
 

Dirtbmw20

Lee Casto
Silver Member
I have actually thought about making a concave live center that is small enough in diameter that I can use it with my router. That way just as KJ is explaining the tip doesn't have to come off and the original center is kept.

Sent from my XT901 using Tapatalk 2

Check with Todd on a small diameter concave live center. The one that came with my lathe from Todd is only 13.25mm OD. I don't do near the amount of repairs that most of you guys do but for what it's worth I have done all my t/d's just as KJ described. I've done maybe 25-30 and haven't had to replace a tip on any of them.

Sent from my SCH-I535
 

JoeyInCali

Maker of Joey Bautista Cues
Silver Member
Check with Todd on a small diameter concave live center. The one that came with my lathe from Todd is only 13.25mm OD. I don't do near the amount of repairs that most of you guys do but for what it's worth I have done all my t/d's just as KJ described. I've done maybe 25-30 and haven't had to replace a tip on any of them.

Sent from my SCH-I535

Why not just make drilled/bored jigs with center holes ?
Heck, you can use capped ferrules.
That way you can still use the router.
 

Brickcues

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I do this every day. I even did 3 today. Takes all of about 10 minutes to do.

I always take the ferrule down first. If I am going from 13mm to 12.5mm I put the shaft in the lathe with only the ferrule sticking out as if you are putting a tip on and then make a couple of passes with a sharp cutter and take a tenth of a mm at a time off until you hit 12.65 mm. Do not cut the shaft as the cutter will dig in as the wood is alot softer. At this point take 220 sandpaper and clean up the cutter marks on the ferrule and take the shaft out of the lathe.

I now put the shaft in the sanding lathe. I have a small Jet wood lathe that runs 4000 rpm. I start with 80 grit paper, yes 80 grit. I go from the end of the finish or a couple of inches from the joint to the ferrule and make several passes till the wood at the ferrule is about a tenth mm bigger than the ferrule. I then go with 220 grit to remove the marks left by the 80 grit and also sand on the ferrule. I check to be sure the wood is almost the same size at the ferrule and then go to 320 and then 400 paper. At this point I put sealer on the shaft twice and then sand off with 400 and then polish with 2000 grit. Apply wax and then burnish with paper towel.

The last thing I do is polish the ferrule on my buffing wheel.
 

ddcuerepair

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
If you make a sanding gauge at 12.6 cut the ferrule and the tip to 12.52 sand it to finish size seal it with thin CA.

Then use the sanding gauge to sand the shaft to the desired length of before the taper starts.

Just keep sliding the gauge up the shaft till it stops then you can see where you need to sand and wont over sand or under cut the shaft.

The 12.6 gauge will get you close and when you finish sand with 400 this will get you to your 12.5 seal and wax the shaft and you are done.

Take your time and you will do just fine.

If I were you I would practice on some junk shaft wood or house cues till you get a feel for what you are doing.

Don't forget take you time you are not in a race here. You only get one chance to get this job done right.

Rush and screw up and you are now buying you customer a new shaft.

I have been using this method for the past 20 years and it has not failed me yet.

There are may ways to do this job.

This one has worked very well for me over the years.

Find what works for you and hone your method to perfection.

Strive to be the best and you will never have to look for work. It will find you.
 

whammo57

Kim Walker
Silver Member
sand a shaft

I am sure that all the methods mentioned here work well.

How about a shaft with a 1/8 in roll in the middle.

Will sanding it down make it worse??

I refused to do one because it had a warp in it.

Kim
 

Canadian cue

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I do this every day. I even did 3 today. Takes all of about 10 minutes to do.

I always take the ferrule down first. If I am going from 13mm to 12.5mm I put the shaft in the lathe with only the ferrule sticking out as if you are putting a tip on and then make a couple of passes with a sharp cutter and take a tenth of a mm at a time off until you hit 12.65 mm. Do not cut the shaft as the cutter will dig in as the wood is alot softer. At this point take 220 sandpaper and clean up the cutter marks on the ferrule and take the shaft out of the lathe.

I now put the shaft in the sanding lathe. I have a small Jet wood lathe that runs 4000 rpm. I start with 80 grit paper, yes 80 grit. I go from the end of the finish or a couple of inches from the joint to the ferrule and make several passes till the wood at the ferrule is about a tenth mm bigger than the ferrule. I then go with 220 grit to remove the marks left by the 80 grit and also sand on the ferrule. I check to be sure the wood is almost the same size at the ferrule and then go to 320 and then 400 paper. At this point I put sealer on the shaft twice and then sand off with 400 and then polish with 2000 grit. Apply wax and then burnish with paper towel.

The last thing I do is polish the ferrule on my buffing wheel.

IMO there was a very important thing stated here, and I think it's worth clarifying. Sand paper is a cutting tool and there are reasons for using coarse grits. Using to fine a grit to take allot of material off is counterproductive. If you use a fine grit paper that paper will clog quick and start to generate heat. You will also increase the probability of making an out of round shaft. Always remember you want your paper cutting not rubbing.
 

ddcuerepair

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
This method will not remove a warp.
You will need to re-cut the shaft on a taper bar and router.

1/8 out you will need to cut close to a 1/4 just to true the shaft then you will need to cut more off to get it round again. A 13 mm shaft would be a 9 or 10 mm shaft after all that cutting.


Sometimes it's better to bite the bullet and buy a new shaft.

If there is a wrap in the shaft I tell the customer before I start. This method will not remove the wrap in the shaft.
 
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JoeyInCali

Maker of Joey Bautista Cues
Silver Member
I am sure that all the methods mentioned here work well.

How about a shaft with a 1/8 in roll in the middle.

Will sanding it down make it worse??

I refused to do one because it had a warp in it.

Kim

You'll just make it worse.
Might as well heat it and bend it.
 
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