Jewel or tool?

Nuts4Tascarellas · May 29, 2017

I took a risk on this old Joss. If it's what I think it is - it's a good score. This is the first block gold letter Joss that I have ever seen. I believe it was made prior to the gold letter cues that we usually see. I'm sure that someone on here will know the answer. I will say that the cue plays incredibly well. Just has a great feel.

Michael Webb · May 29, 2017

I've been a fan of Joss cues for a long time. First time I've seen the logo like this. I've seen the gold logo on the joint collars. It's different than this and the block lettering was hand done on Delrin butt caps. I'm hoping to learn something new here.

Chopdoc · May 29, 2017

Looks like a Delrin cap.

I do think this is an early post-block letter cue. Before the classic "gold letter" cues as you say. There were white letter cues as well.

http://www.proficientbilliards.com/cues/Joss/ebony/index.htm

http://www.proficientbilliards.com/cues/Joss/1982Spearpoints/index.htm

http://www.proficientbilliards.com/cues/Joss/1984/index.htm

An odd logo:
http://www.proficientbilliards.com/cues/Joss/oddlogo/index.htm

Looking through my own files I do not find that exact logo.

Nice find. Definitely unusual IMHO.

I would love to see what weight bolt is under that bumper.

I am guessing this cue is somewhere after the block letter and somewhere before the classic gold letter. It does have the CNC points, so it's not a converted full splice. It has an A joint most likely. Janes experimented with at least a couple A joints through that time. It is possible this has a finger splice. Makes me wonder what is under that wrap....

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cuesblues · May 29, 2017

Cool cue
I've never seen one like it either.
I do have a similar Josswest, except for the ivory butt cap.

Michael Webb · May 29, 2017

I wonder if a logo was on a white butt cap and it got broken. And this logo was fabricated so the cue still said Joss??

Chopdoc · May 29, 2017

cuesblues said:
Cool cue
I've never seen one like it either.
I do have a similar Josswest, except for the ivory butt cap.

I think Stroud made some similar cues in an effort to supply a demand for basic cues. I believe they were simply fancy sneakies with a proper stainless 14 joint, butt cap, and a wrap.

He commented about those cues here on AZB at some point. I think his intention was to make them sort of a standard model and sell them through pool halls and/or keep a supply of them going through dealers. Sort of low volume production...to use a dirty word.

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Chopdoc · May 29, 2017

Michael Webb said:
I wonder if a logo was on a white butt cap and it got broken. And this logo was fabricated so the cue still said Joss??

Interesting thought, and I can't refute it 100%. It is possible, but I think less likely.

I have seen cues from Janes that were repaired with an update. Like a block letter cue with a gold logo on the butt cap instead of the engraved delrin...a known Janes repair. There was one for sale recently on Ebay like this.

The problem is that all of the cues I have seen that were "updated" at repair by Joss (very few) actually used known parts/materials/logos.

If this was done as a repair, why the unique logo?

I am betting somebody has seen this before and may have a picture of it. I do think it is likely original and rare.

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SwissChris · May 29, 2017

I have see some joss cues like this in Switzerland
Could those only be for export ?
The cue seems to be right with all the joss early 80s look

tduncan · May 29, 2017

Michael Webb said:
I wonder if a logo was on a white butt cap and it got broken. And this logo was fabricated so the cue still said Joss??

That would be my first guess

Michael Webb · May 29, 2017

Chopdoc said:
Interesting thought, and I can't refute it 100%. It is possible, but I think less likely.

I have seen cues from Janes that were repaired with an update. Like a block letter cue with a gold logo on the butt cap instead of the engraved delrin...a known Janes repair. There was one for sale recently on Ebay like this.

The problem is that all of the cues I have seen that were "updated" at repair by Joss (very few) actually used known parts/materials/logos.

If this was done as a repair, why the unique logo?

I am betting somebody has seen this before and may have a picture of it. I do think it is likely original and rare.

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Somewhat true but not all repairs are done by the original Maker. It has become very common that who ever is local. Usually changes a broken butt cap and the original logo if you don't have the ability or permission to duplicate it. Gets lost.

Chopdoc · May 29, 2017

Michael Webb said:
Somewhat true but not all repairs are done by the original Maker. It has become very common that who ever is local. Usually changes a broken butt cap and the original logo if you don't have the ability or permission to duplicate it. Gets lost.

Ah...I didn't realize you meant a repair other than Joss.

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Chopdoc · May 29, 2017

SwissChris said:
I have see some joss cues like this in Switzerland
Could those only be for export ?
The cue seems to be right with all the joss early 80s look

I think this is our best lead so far. You have seen some like this.

Right now that leads me to think it is't unique or a repair but simply a smaller number of cues made this way.

Maybe for a specific market? No idea, but an interesting suggestion since that's where you saw them.

I am aware that Joss did make cues models specifically for export at one time. Those cues are rarely seen in the US. I think I have some pics or a catalog somewhere on my drive.

But the ones that I am aware of were made in the early 2000's or late 1990's IIRC. Not likely anything to do with this cue I think...but could be wrong.

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cueman · May 30, 2017

Joss built several exclusive lines for re-sellers that used various logos that were different than their standard logo. They did it for some larger USA companies like Crystal Leisure and so on as well as overseas companies. I would also guess this to possibly be one of those as I have no remembrance of seeing that particular logo before.

But to answer the question about whether it is a jewel or a tool. I think it can be both. A great find that is made to be played with.

cuesblues · May 30, 2017

Chopdoc said:
I think Stroud made some similar cues in an effort to supply a demand for basic cues. I believe they were simply fancy sneakies with a proper stainless 14 joint, butt cap, and a wrap.

He commented about those cues here on AZB at some point. I think his intention was to make them sort of a standard model and sell them through pool halls and/or keep a supply of them going through dealers. Sort of low volume production...to use a dirty word.

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Here's a couple of pics, this is the first one ive seen that is not ebony.
Not sure about the wood... Coco or Brazilian?
Butt cap looks like ivory

Chopdoc · May 30, 2017

That's a cool JW.

Similar style to this Joss.

But I think even fancier than the JW cues I was thinking of. They just had black rings IIRC, and certainly not an ivory butt cap.

Stroud could say, I am just working off memory of a single post he made several years ago.

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Nuts4Tascarellas · May 31, 2017

Value

Can anyone estimate a value?

ratcues · May 31, 2017

Everything looks correct to be a Joss except the butt cap. If I am seeing it correctly, it looks like the butt of the cue is longer than 29" as compared to the shaft. If so, I think the cap was replaced from the traditional shorter .5" black to a 1.5" black Delrin. JMO...

cuesblues · May 31, 2017

Nuts4Tascarellas said:
Can anyone estimate a value?

Less than a new Joss sneaky.
Someone may think it's worth more but putting in perspective it isn't worth much.
$150-$200 is generous

Chopdoc · May 31, 2017

Joss cues of this era typically pull about 350 on Ebay for relatively plain 4 point cues.

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Chopdoc · May 31, 2017

ratcues said:
Everything looks correct to be a Joss except the butt cap. If I am seeing it correctly, it looks like the butt of the cue is longer than 29" as compared to the shaft. If so, I think the cap was replaced from the traditional shorter .5" black to a 1.5" black Delrin. JMO...

The butt does look 1 inch longer than the shaft.

Can we get measurements?

Joss cues of that era typically used the longer butt cap, not the half inch.

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Jewel or tool?

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