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lightweight shafts- - 08-07-2016, 12:47 PM

I am new here,1st post. A question for the cue enthusiasts and builders to chime in on.

I am designing a new cue and am planning on having the builder use a treated maple for the shafts. This would /should weigh out lighter than regular hard maple, so says the guy I bought it from. Shaft #1 is a conical taper like the Z2 Predator with a 1/2 inch ferrule and an Ultraskin pro tip. Shaft#2 is a 10 inch pro taper at 12.5mm, short elforyn ferrule and same tip. Butt is cocobolo forearm with a granadillo handle weighted to around 16 oz.

I think that the shafts should weigh around 3.5 oz.to total 19.5 for the cue.Looking for feedback on how this might play. I am also going with a 3/8 G10 joint pin and looking for a balance point of 18-18 1/2 inches. Am I crazy or what?

Ken in IN.
  
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Gorramjayne
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08-07-2016, 03:04 PM

Welcome!

That sounds a little rear-weighted. Depending on your stroke style you may experience the tip lifting more than you want during the stroke, particularly when you have to lean over the table and cue away from your body. Note also that simply going by "balance point" doesn't really work. Two cues with the same balance point can feel very different depending on how mass is distributed, i.e. a cue with a heavy brass collared joint in the middle can have the same weight and balance as your cue, just depending on the densities of the wood used and how deep/wide the weight bolt cavity it drilled, but will handle differently. You have to play around with the distribution of mass to find out what best resists tip lift and sideways motion for your particular grip, stroke, and bridge length.

Have the cue builder drill the threads for the pin an extra 3/4 inch deep into the shaft and get a small 3/8" set screw. What you do is add tungsten powder into the cavity, tamp it down, then put the set screw in to hold the powder there. This is commonly done to golf clubs to change how they swing. You can add probably half an ounce forward into the shaft if you find you need it, and undo it easily by removing the set screw and dumping out the powder. IMO especially with thin tapered shafts, cuemakers should put a little extra mass in the shaft as far forward as they can without hurting deflection. Having that weight up there helps you feel the line your tip is moving in a lot better.

As to whether you're crazy, I can't really answer that. I'm the one who obsesses enough to want to figure out a way to put tungsten in inside a shaft.

Last edited by Gorramjayne; 08-07-2016 at 03:07 PM.
  
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08-07-2016, 03:37 PM

3.5 ozs. is the minimum ...3.7 more acceptable....3.9 is what I would shoot for or basically try to get 4 ounce shafts.


"My Pool Cues"

*Bob Owen Custom- Level 8 (s/d 4-24-16) - Flat Ivory Joint
*J. Rauenzahn Custom - Level 6 (s/d 5-4-16) - Flat Ivory Joint

*J. Rauenzahn Custom - Level 8 (s/d 2-23-15) - Flat Ivory Joint
*Ed Prewitt Custom '05 - Level 8 - Flat Ivory Joint
*Bob Owen Custom - Level 8 (s/d 5-4-14) - Flat Ivory Joint
*Tim Scruggs Custom (05-95) Level 7 - Flat Ivory Joint
*Runde Schon (03-85) Custom "R" Series (1 of 1)
*Palmer (Original) - '72 (All Cocobolo Wood)
  
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kenny hall
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08-07-2016, 07:10 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorramjayne View Post
Welcome!

That sounds a little rear-weighted. Depending on your stroke style you may experience the tip lifting more than you want during the stroke, particularly when you have to lean over the table and cue away from your body. Note also that simply going by "balance point" doesn't really work. Two cues with the same balance point can feel very different depending on how mass is distributed, i.e. a cue with a heavy brass collared joint in the middle can have the same weight and balance as your cue, just depending on the densities of the wood used and how deep/wide the weight bolt cavity it drilled, but will handle differently. You have to play around with the distribution of mass to find out what best resists tip lift and sideways motion for your particular grip, stroke, and bridge length.

Have the cue builder drill the threads for the pin an extra 3/4 inch deep into the shaft and get a small 3/8" set screw. What you do is add tungsten powder into the cavity, tamp it down, then put the set screw in to hold the powder there. This is commonly done to golf clubs to change how they swing. You can add probably half an ounce forward into the shaft if you find you need it, and undo it easily by removing the set screw and dumping out the powder. IMO especially with thin tapered shafts, cuemakers should put a little extra mass in the shaft as far forward as they can without hurting deflection. Having that weight up there helps you feel the line your tip is moving in a lot better.

As to whether you're crazy, I can't really answer that. I'm the one who obsesses enough to want to figure out a way to put tungsten in inside a shaft.
I hear you about tinkering with the shafts. I tinker with everyting and with poolcues Ihave tinkered so long with different playing cues and tip combinations that right now I thoroughly comfused ny mind and body. I had a couple of cardiac arrests inDec.2015 and was real weak whenI got back to the poolroom. Ihad 4 cues then plus a friend wanted me to evaluate some cues he had, so I was playing with a different cue and tipevery time Itried toplay in a weakened state. Tofix that ,I sold those cues and bought 4 more cues and switched to hard tips from soft and Ifind myself more messed upthanever inmy life. Prise God I have my strength back but Iam taking a break from pool untilI receive this new cue and go from there.

Thanks for the tip about the tungsten powder in the shaft. I will probably dothatas r
the shafts are not made yet and willtake into consideration what you said about the balance. The shafts I have been playing with have been 3.9 to 4.2 with SS 3/8-10 pins and 19 1/2 to 20 forward balance. The cue I oam having built has a rather heavvy short slice cocobolo forearm and I am using a steel connecting screw tojointhe nose to the handle which wilbe granadillo with a 4" cocobolo buttsleeve. Iam actually basing my theory of the cue on a j/b cue that I own that I like the hit and balance of. I know it is a shot in the dark but Columbus.............Ken

Last edited by kenny hall; 08-07-2016 at 07:14 PM.
  
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Gorramjayne
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08-07-2016, 07:42 PM

I actually have not yet gotten around to adding the tungsten powder to my shaft. I have it on hand, but I need to get on a lathe to drill into the shaft. I have tested the concept by wrapping about 0.3 ounces of lead tape (also used to weight golf clubs) around the shaft near as about 2-3 inches in front of the joint, and it does help me feel the line of my stroke more.

I wonder if this may be part of why some people have problems with LD shafts? When you take weight out of the tip you may have a harder time getting a feel for how you're cuing and getting consistent tip contact may take some adjustment to your stroke.

Cheers to working on your game. Tinkering is fun but at some point we have to learn your equipment well enough that it becomes second nature.
  
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Bavafongoul
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08-07-2016, 08:56 PM

I'll share with you a guide........now keep in mind piloted shafts use a metal receiver in the shaft's face which contributes about 1/3 oz. weight to the final weight of the shaft and a flat faced wood shaft adds nothing extra to the shaft's weight...........shafts should be at least 18% of the cue's weight (minimum) and the higher the percentage the less rear weight the cue will exhibit.........a great benchmark is 20% and the legendary cue-makers made shafts that were 21, 22 & 23% of the cue's mass which made the balance wonderful.......the wood they used long ago seemed to be more dense from older trees being harvested.....naturally the shaft size and taper play a factor in deciding the shafts final weight.......the aforementioned percentages are based upon 13mm original maple shafts, 1" ferrules, and a taper of approx. 12" - 14".

When you use these ratios for whatever cue weight you have in mind, the stroke tends to be pretty neutral until you go beyond 20%......and as the percentage increases, the more forward balanced the cue will exhibit. However, this also assumes the cue was not completed sticking a substantial weight bolt in the butt to satisfy the requested cue weight since this would tend to make the cue more rear weighted. I am sure there are others that disagree with my opinion and I am not a cue-maker but this I know......I have never hit with a cue with shafts <18% and still enjoyed the feel and performance of the cue and conversely, the higher the percentage, the more I've enjoyed playing with those cues. I had all my customs built this way & everyone that's tried my cues has raved about the balance and feel. My custom cues' have shafts averaging 21 -22%......just passing this along as FYI & JMO.



Matt B.


"My Pool Cues"

*Bob Owen Custom- Level 8 (s/d 4-24-16) - Flat Ivory Joint
*J. Rauenzahn Custom - Level 6 (s/d 5-4-16) - Flat Ivory Joint

*J. Rauenzahn Custom - Level 8 (s/d 2-23-15) - Flat Ivory Joint
*Ed Prewitt Custom '05 - Level 8 - Flat Ivory Joint
*Bob Owen Custom - Level 8 (s/d 5-4-14) - Flat Ivory Joint
*Tim Scruggs Custom (05-95) Level 7 - Flat Ivory Joint
*Runde Schon (03-85) Custom "R" Series (1 of 1)
*Palmer (Original) - '72 (All Cocobolo Wood)

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Gorramjayne
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08-07-2016, 09:30 PM

I agree completely, forward weight has many advantages and it's particularly important to make up for the lost shaft weight when we go LD.

The shaft I want to modify is a Katana Bushido, which is at or under 3.5 oz, 11.5mm pro taper. Astoundingly performance when hit right, but with out any weight up at the tip, it requires a very mechanical stroke for dependable good contact, and can be a handful to hit right when I have to twist over the side of the table, jack up, or am otherwise obstructed from getting down into my usual stance.

Still, as far as what results in a 'neutral stroke' you have to consider how people are going to stroke most of their shots. Pool has changed a lot in the last 30 years. The faster cloth especially changes how we prioritize the cue's properties and I think the next successful cue builder is going to be the one that makes low deflection with good feedback and forward balance. As we tend towards faster cloth and tighter pockets we're seeing people much lower to the table and with more compact strokes than 30 years ago, which minimizes the importance of forward balance for accurate stroking. I think we've avoided addressing the issue of overly rear-balanced modern production cues because of this tend towards lower stances and less dramatic strokes.

Look at snooker vs 3-cushion, the tiny snooker tips weigh little and are hard to stroke straight so snooker is played with a very compact short backswing and flat facing stance.3-cushion cues have a fair deal of weight up front which is important not just for imparting maximum action on the ball but for helping you feel where the tip is going to make contact when you take shots often times having to stand completely over the ball.

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08-07-2016, 09:47 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bavafongoul View Post
3.5 ozs. is the minimum ...3.7 more acceptable....3.9 is what I would shoot for or basically try to get 4 ounce shafts.
Thats depend if the shaft has insert or not? Insert can weight from .3-.5 oz
  
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pookster
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08-07-2016, 09:50 PM

Shaft without insert like big pin radial or 3/8x10 should weight from 3.5-3.7 oz max

Shaft with insert like 5/16x14 or 18 should weight from 3.7-4.0 oz max

Shaft weight depend on diameter also
  
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Bavafongoul
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08-07-2016, 10:23 PM

My EP cue is 18.8 ounces.....14.6 butt & 4.2 ounce, 13mm shafts, 1" ivory ferrules, Flat faced ivory joint.
My Scruggs cue is 18.3 ounces...14.5 ounce butt & 3.8 ounce shafts, ivory ferrules, Flat Faced ivory joint.

My other customs use 14.5 oz. cue butts & weigh 18.5 ozs, 4 oz shafts, ivory ferrules & Flat Faced ivory joint.
These six cues are as closely matched in specs as any cue collection I've seen and was intentionally done.

Switching cues is easy to do when all of the cues are built the same way, albeit from different cue-makers.


"My Pool Cues"

*Bob Owen Custom- Level 8 (s/d 4-24-16) - Flat Ivory Joint
*J. Rauenzahn Custom - Level 6 (s/d 5-4-16) - Flat Ivory Joint

*J. Rauenzahn Custom - Level 8 (s/d 2-23-15) - Flat Ivory Joint
*Ed Prewitt Custom '05 - Level 8 - Flat Ivory Joint
*Bob Owen Custom - Level 8 (s/d 5-4-14) - Flat Ivory Joint
*Tim Scruggs Custom (05-95) Level 7 - Flat Ivory Joint
*Runde Schon (03-85) Custom "R" Series (1 of 1)
*Palmer (Original) - '72 (All Cocobolo Wood)

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9Ballr
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08-07-2016, 11:51 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by kenny hall View Post
I am new here,1st post. A question for the cue enthusiasts and builders to chime in on.

I am designing a new cue and am planning on having the builder use a treated maple for the shafts. This would /should weigh out lighter than regular hard maple, so says the guy I bought it from. Shaft #1 is a conical taper like the Z2 Predator with a 1/2 inch ferrule and an Ultraskin pro tip. Shaft#2 is a 10 inch pro taper at 12.5mm, short elforyn ferrule and same tip. Butt is cocobolo forearm with a granadillo handle weighted to around 16 oz.

I think that the shafts should weigh around 3.5 oz.to total 19.5 for the cue.Looking for feedback on how this might play. I am also going with a 3/8 G10 joint pin and looking for a balance point of 18-18 1/2 inches. Am I crazy or what?

Ken in IN.
No you're not crazy.
18 to 19 inches is not uncommon in the least.
I like to have some heft on the bridge hand so I prefer heavy shafts.
4 oz and up for me.
My preferred cue weight is around 19-20 oz. 19.5 is ideal for me.
But this is all very subjective.
It may take you a few cues before you find what you really like.


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08-08-2016, 09:14 AM

I'm the kind of player that always needs a little extra "weight" .. ;-)

I like to play a cue at 20.5 oz. and I prefer a forward weighted cue for sure.

This means no light weight shafts for me -- I have to have a piloted joint with an insert in the shaft and some shaft diameter, at least 12.75 mm.

To get the balance between 18 1/2 inches to 19 inches the weight bolts have to be placed forward in the butt at just the right location. The only way for me to get here is with a custom made to my specs, or a production cue that I will have re tapped and weighted by a cue smith.

Mortuary Mike is one of our members and he has done some work for me along these lines in the past -- I can highly recommend him...

Good rolls.


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Gorramjayne
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08-08-2016, 09:47 AM

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Originally Posted by Agent 99 View Post
To get the balance between 18 1/2 inches to 19 inches the weight bolts have to be placed forward in the butt at just the right location. The only way for me to get here is with a custom made to my specs, or a production cue that I will have re tapped and weighted by a cue smith.
Nah. Most production cue weight bolts are standard threads. If you go to a REAL hardware store, you can find set screws that will fit your cue. Since they don't have a head like bolts do, you can move them anywhere in the bolt cavity (assuming it's deep enough).. I did that with my Pechauers, standard 1/2" thread. Just make sure you wrap the set screws with teflon tape so they don't rattle, move around, or damage the wood threads.

Unfortunately for Lucasi cues, the bolts are 13mm with a non-standard thread pitch, impossible to find. So I just have to buy Lucasi weight bolts and grind the heads off with an angle grinder, then put hem where I want in the cue.
  
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Agent 99
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08-08-2016, 10:15 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorramjayne View Post
Nah. Most production cue weight bolts are standard threads. If you go to a REAL hardware store, you can find set screws that will fit your cue. Since they don't have a head like bolts do, you can move them anywhere in the bolt cavity (assuming it's deep enough).. I did that with my Pechauers, standard 1/2" thread. Just make sure you wrap the set screws with teflon tape so they don't rattle, move around, or damage the wood threads.

Unfortunately for Lucasi cues, the bolts are 13mm with a non-standard thread pitch, impossible to find. So I just have to buy Lucasi weight bolts and grind the heads off with an angle grinder, then put hem where I want in the cue.
Yes .. If you are assuming that the bolt cavity is deep enough -- now if you want to get to a balance point of 18 to 19 inches while using a shaft that only weighs 3.5 ounces you will find, as I have, that the cavity will not usually be deep enough to balance the cue.

But all the more power to you if the cavity is deep enough...

Good rolls.


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His wasnt most production cues
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His wasnt most production cues - 08-08-2016, 10:45 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorramjayne View Post
Nah. Most production cue weight bolts are standard threads. If you go to a REAL hardware store, you can find set screws that will fit your cue. Since they don't have a head like bolts do, you can move them anywhere in the bolt cavity (assuming it's deep enough).. I did that with my Pechauers, standard 1/2" thread. Just make sure you wrap the set screws with teflon tape so they don't rattle, move around, or damage the wood threads.

Unfortunately for Lucasi cues, the bolts are 13mm with a non-standard thread pitch, impossible to find. So I just have to buy Lucasi weight bolts and grind the heads off with an angle grinder, then put hem where I want in the cue.
It was on a early predator sneaky pete made with walnut .
Predator weight system is metric and requires a special tool which Agent99 had .
Filling the cue with weight bolts the butt was still a couple oz light for what the owner wanted .
That's when he shipped his cue to me..


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