Willie Hoppe cue and “Expert Leather Cue Case”

Biloxi Boy

Biloxi Boy

Man With A Golden Arm
I reviewed the catalogs and you are correct. Still, the 1949 catalog contains nothing about capacity. The mouth of my case is 2 ¾" x 1 ¾". What are the dimensions of butts and shafts from the 1950s? There are no dividers, or evidence of such. I took a photo showing a WHPro butt, a Joss butt, and a joint protector in the mouth of the case (the protector is sitting on butts and is not inside the case). AZ's site will not upload the photo. I will try later. My bottom line is I have the case in hand and I do not want to put 2 butts of my butts and 3 of my shafts anywhere near inside this case.
 
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ideologist

ideologist

I don't never exaggerate
Silver Member
Biloxi Boy said:
I reviewed the catalogs and you are correct. Still, the 1949 catalog contains nothing about capacity. The mouth of my case is 2 ¾" x 1 ¾". What are the dimensions of butts and shafts from the 1950s? There are no dividers, or evidence of such. I took a photo showing a WHPro butt, a Joss butt, and a joint protector in the mouth of the case (the protector is sitting on butts and is not inside the case). AZ's site will not upload the photo. I will try later. My bottom line is I have the case in hand and I do not want to put 2 butts of my butts and 3 of my shafts anywhere near inside this case.
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You may have an easier time building a time machine and traveling to the 1940s and 1950s to find out who manufactured these. I'm sure the shops are gone and Brunswick is certainly spotty with their document retention. Understandable, the business changed hands a few times and the Industrial Revolution has moved on.
 
Biloxi Boy

Biloxi Boy

Man With A Golden Arm
I agree. The answer is probably not in the pool world unless AESCO or Schmidt can supply the anwer. I have emailed several gun concerns to see if they can help. The similarities in the tooling are compelling.
 
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Biloxi Boy

Biloxi Boy

Man With A Golden Arm
This is only photo AZ would accept. My case is not a 2/3.
 

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TATE

TATE

AzB Gold Mensch
Silver Member
Biloxi Boy said:
Just looking for evidence, particularly photographs, which might tend to prove or disprove that the case I possess was distributed by Brunswick.
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I don't think it's a Brunswick case but it's obviously very similar. The Brunswick's I've seen have a different lid neck area design.

Those pictures you see of 'The Hustler" case are not stills - they are frozen scenes straight from he movie somebody captured. I think your case is better than the Brunswick's - it looks pretty nice to me.
 
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TATE

TATE

AzB Gold Mensch
Silver Member
You need to resize them with software, about 1000 pixels wide. I scrolled so far right I had to leave the room. :wink:
 
Biloxi Boy

Biloxi Boy

Man With A Golden Arm
I watched The Hustler again yesterday. In watching it before, I had not noticed the scene early in the movie showing the case. After examining the early scene, I agree with you.

I am not trying to prove any particular conclusion. I am simply trying to gather and evalutate all possible evidence and arrive at the most logically correct conclusion. To this end, I appreciate everyone's contributions.

(One problem here is that Brunswick's catalog data has been deemed "unreliable". When this occurs, the question becomes what information from Brunswick can one use and what information can one not use -- one cannot simply pick or choose based upon likes or dislikes.)

I have considered whether or not my case is a "gun" or "fishing" case. With the 2/3 capacity specification for 1950 and all subsequent years, it seems that my case would have to be a 1949 model because it certainly not a 2/3. (However, is Brunswick's 2/3 specification to be relied upon in the first place?)

One unavoidable fact is that I found a case and a cue stick: a 56 3/8 inch long, 18 ounce, Brunswick Willie Hoppe Professional cue stick (which, if we could rely on Brunswick's catalog specifications, means the cue is a 1948 or early 1949 model). Does the fact that a possible 1949 case was found with a possible 1948 or early 1949 cue mean anything? Was this mere coincidence?

At this point, I really wish someone would come forward with a case to use for comparison. Surely, my case is not the only one out there.
 
Biloxi Boy

Biloxi Boy

Man With A Golden Arm
Sorry about all of the oversized pictures. I am swearing off posting pictures until I can understand what I am doing wrong and how to do it right. When you say pixels and software, it makes me sweat.
 
Bob Jewett

Bob Jewett

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Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Biloxi Boy said:
Sorry about all of the oversized pictures. I am swearing off posting pictures until I can understand what I am doing wrong and how to do it right. When you say pixels and software, it makes me sweat.
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My solution is a free screen-grabber program called "Cropper". Something similar may be on your system already. It grabs any part of my screen I select into an image file. I don't have to use any picture editing software -- I just get the image to be a reasonable size on my screen.

Cropper puts all the images I grab into its own folder so I can go back for any image I've already posted.

Here is an image I grabbed off a newspaper's web page three years ago for a discussion of the "brain wash" drill and the competition Boys Clubs used to run.

LouisvilleCourierJournal_Mar4_1951.jpg
 
classiccues

classiccues

Don't hashtag your broke friends
Silver Member
About your cues in the case...

You showed two cues butt caps up...

Turn one, butt cap down. You'll notice due to the taper, you have more movement at the top. You'll have about a 1 1/4 and a 27/32 (joint) at the top. I suspect you may get two shafts in-between the center gap on each side, maybe 3.

I could be wrong, I do not have one of those cases here, but just sketching it out on paper it seems plausible.

Joe
 
Biloxi Boy

Biloxi Boy

Man With A Golden Arm
Good call. One butt up/One butt down does allow two shafts to fit all the way in without resistance, but a third shaft will not go without force and possible damage.

I would not have thought of this approach. I hope the cases were shipped with instructions or diagrams for folks like me. Plus, I used modern cues. Since we are in a game of fractions of inches, I had to consider whether the "fat butts" of the 1950's and accompanying fatter shafts would affected the outcome. I think two fatter butts and two fatter shafts would still make it in, but the difference would definitely show up when attempting to case a third, fatter shaft.

Meanwhile, I have written Brunswick, A E Schmidt, plus several leather stamping companies, leather case repairers, etc. (Repairers take gun cases similar in the condition to the Mosconi Case, above, and make them look like new. Amazing.)

Hopefully, someone will help.
 
classiccues

classiccues

Don't hashtag your broke friends
Silver Member
I have been putting many cues in many cases for a long time. It is possible that its simply like a rubiks cube. Your two shafts may fit joint down and the third might fit. You may have to play around with the configuration.

The butts may have been slightly bigger but the joints tended to be slightly smaller. I have had many older cues that were around .800 or less. Down from todays .840 more or less standard.

Anyways its like a Fellini.. you get a ton of chalk if you put tips down. If you go tips up, it accomplishes two things.. no chalk in base of case and the butt goes in last, comes out first. Which I prefer.

Joe



Biloxi Boy said:
Good call. One butt up/One butt down does allow two shafts to fit all the way in without resistance, but a third shaft will not go without force and possible damage.

I would not have thought of this approach. I hope the cases were shipped with instructions or diagrams for folks like me. Plus, I used modern cues. Since we are in a game of fractions of inches, I had to consider whether the "fat butts" of the 1950's and accompanying fatter shafts would affected the outcome. I think two fatter butts and two fatter shafts would still make it in, but the difference would definitely show up when attempting to case a third, fatter shaft.

Meanwhile, I have written Brunswick, A E Schmidt, plus several leather stamping companies, leather case repairers, etc. (Repairers take gun cases similar in the condition to the Mosconi Case, above, and make them look like new. Amazing.)

Hopefully, someone will help.
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Biloxi Boy

Biloxi Boy

Man With A Golden Arm
One burning question I have is how was it initially determined that we cannot rely on Brunswick data?

For example, according to the Brunswick catalogs that I have seen, the Willie Hoppe Professional was offered in weights of 20, 21, and 22 from 1941 to 1947 and from 1948 on 18 and 19 ounce weights were also offered. Can one depend upon this information and be assured that 18 and 19 ounce Professionals can only date from 1948 or later?
 
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Biloxi Boy

Biloxi Boy

Man With A Golden Arm
You cannot read this stuff too many times. It may be “all about the leather”.

Brunswick's catalog says its Expert Case is “made of top grain mahogany colored cowhide”.

A. E. Schmidt's catalog says its Classic Case is “made from top grain horsehide leather dyed to a handsome brown finish”.

Without arguing colors or resorting to Billiards CSI for genetic analysis, does anyone know if cow leather and horse leather are readily distinguishable. If so, how?
 
JB Cases

JB Cases

www.jbcases.com
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Biloxi Boy said:
I wanted to share this with ya’ll. I have been researching a Brunswick cue and a Brunswick case for some time and must express sincere thanks to Scott/runscott who has been incredibly generous with his time and knowledge.

I bought the cue and case at an estate sale after seeing a photo of the cue on estatesales.net. The cue is a first decal/second signature Brunswick Willie Hoppe Professional made of brazilian rosewood. The cue has a Hoppe ring. The case is a Brunswick “Expert Leather Cue Case” as shown on page 5 of Brunswick’s Spring 1949 Mail Order Catalog.

I have been “mining” Brunswicks catalogs and have found the following information. (I do not vouch for the accuracy of this information as I have been cautioned that information from Brunswick catalogs, etc., is not completely reliable.) Beginning in 1941, Brunswick offered the Willie Hoppe Professional in weights of 20, 21, and 22 ounces. In 1948, Brunswick added 18 and 19 ounce cues. Brunswick’s catalog gives no specifications on the length of the Willie Hoppe Professional for 1941 and 1942. In 1943 the specified length is 57 inches. In the 1945, 1946, 1948, and 1949 (Spring) catalogs, the specified length is 56 inches. In the 1949 (Fall) catalog, the length became 57 inches and remained at 57 inches for the years I checked. My cue is stamped “18” and measures 56 ⅜ inches w/o a tip. If one assumes both that Brunswick manufactured and shipped per its specifications and that my cue length is unaltered, one can fairly conclude that my cue was made in 1948 or early 1949.

As to leather cases, in 1948 Brunswick offered the “Professional” and “Aristocrat”. In 1949, the leather cases offered were “Expert” and “Aristocrat”. Brunswick continued to offer the Expert until 1954. According to the catalogs, the Professional was 35 ½ inches long and the Expert was 32 inches long. My case measures 32 inches and agrees with the Expert described and pictured in the catalog.
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Something we did a while ago.

 
JB Cases

JB Cases

www.jbcases.com
Silver Member
Biloxi Boy said:
You cannot read this stuff too many times. It may be “all about the leather”.

Brunswick's catalog says its Expert Case is “made of top grain mahogany colored cowhide”.

A. E. Schmidt's catalog says its Classic Case is “made from top grain horsehide leather dyed to a handsome brown finish”.

Without arguing colors or resorting to Billiards CSI for genetic analysis, does anyone know if cow leather and horse leather are readily distinguishable. If so, how?
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Depending on the type of tanning the two leathers might be indistinguishable. Horse tends to be stiffer. Vegetable tanned cowhide can be tooled and I have never seen any horse hide that is useable for tooling. Lastly the flesh-side (the coarse side) of horse hide is generally finer than cowhide. This is not always the case as the flesh side could be buffed smooth but this is not common except in commercial situations where the leather must be 100% consistent.

Other than that I have no experience. The old leather guys probably have ways to tell that are simple and obvious to them.
 
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