Is this a foul? Not intended use of equipment?

B

bdorman

Dead money
Silver Member
I hope I can describe this adequately:

A player is trying to plan out the CB position (leave) on his shot. Often times you'll see players touch their tip to the spot on which they intend to leave the CB.

But this player put a chalk cube on the spot and then walked back to the aim line to think about his english/speed/etc. I want to emphasize that he picked up the chalk cube and returned it to rail before taking his shot -- he just used it as a visual aid in planning his shot. (it was not like marking a bank/kick spot with a chalk cube where a player shoots at the cube).

Does that fall under "not intended use of equipment"?

I wouldn't call him on it anyway because I'm glad that he's even thinking about position (most of the players in my crowd don't). But it did get me curious about its legality.
 
vvsels

vvsels

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
never seen anyone do that. would be interesting to see what other people thinks.

if my opponent was lower handicap i would let almost anything go.
 
PaulieB

PaulieB

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I would think that using an object to help aim while taking a shot would be a foul. Since he moved the item before shooting, I would say it was not a foul.
 
BRussell

BRussell

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I'd say definitely a foul for marking a spot on the table. Doesn't matter if you remove it - of course you have to remove it before shooting anyway.
 
M

miscrewed89

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I don't think that would be a foul. The one that gets me shaking my head is when a player uses his cue to point at the spot on the OB where the CB needs to to make contact, then drags the cue on the cloth making a visible line pointing at the target.
 
CSykes24

CSykes24

www.coreysykes.com
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He marked the table with chalk for figuring out where to get position? That's 100% a foul.
 
eastcoast_chris

eastcoast_chris

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I say it's a foul.

It is similar to using a ball (cue ball with ball in hand) to "measure" if a ball can pass through an opening.... which is definitely a foul.

Also similar to laying your cue (and letting go of it) on the table to visualize a shot ... which is also a foul (that I've called people on before!)
 
sbpoolleague

sbpoolleague

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Foul in the BCAPL

This is a foul if you are playing by the BCAPL rules...

Rule 1-3.1.f (Use of Equipment)
You may use your cue, held in your hand or not, to help align a shot. You may use your cue and hands to measure angles and distances for bank shots and kick shots. No other cues, bridges or equipment may be used. Penalty: Foul immediately upon the violation, regardless of whether a shot is executed.

Rule 1-39 (Marking the Table)
It is a foul if you INTENTIONALLY mark the table in any way to assist you in executing any shot or future shot. Marking includes the deliberate placement of chalk or any other object at a specific point on a rail or cushion to aid the alignment of a shot, or placing any mark on any part of the table. The foul occurs at the moment you mark the table, regardless of whether you remove the mark or whether a shot is taken.

I highlighted the word "intentionally" as it gives a referee some room for interpretation of a player's intent.
 
B

bdorman

Dead money
Silver Member
CSykes24 said:
He marked the table with chalk for figuring out where to get position? That's 100% a foul.
Click to expand...

Just to clarify: He never put a "chalk mark" on the table. He just placed the chalk cube where he wanted the CB to land, and then removed the cube before taking the shot.
 
B

bbb

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
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if he put the chalk on the table surface (not the rail) and took his hand off it it would be a foul to me since it is a foul to lay your stick on the table to line up a shot and take your hand off the stick
this from the bca rules
,,,,,
6.12 Cue Stick on the Table
If the shooter uses his cue stick in order to align a shot by placing it on the table without having a hand on the stick, it is a foul.
 
sbpoolleague

sbpoolleague

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
No longer a foul to let cue go

eastcoast_chris said:
Also similar to laying your cue (and letting go of it) on the table to visualize a shot ... which is also a foul (that I've called people on before!)
Click to expand...

This is no longer a foul in the BCAPL rules. See rule 1-3.1.f quoted above.
 
B

BasementDweller

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I don't know what the official rule book says but this is certainly a foul. Take this to its logical conclusion and you will have a player littering the entire bed of the table with cubes of chalk -- tracking out the entire intended path of the cue ball.
 
Celophanewrap

Celophanewrap

Call me Grace
Silver Member
I would think that as long as he didn't actually make a blue (or whatever color chalk) mark with the chalk that there is no foul. I have seen players when they;'re looking at a kick or a bank use their stick to see an angle or hold their cue over a ball and to the pocket to see the contact point. I've, we all have, seen cues used as measuring devices angle finders and chalk used in similar ways. I would imagine that as long as no physical mark was made on the table then no foul occurred
But in seeing some of the other posts, I guess it would depend on the league you're playing in or the rules you're playing by
 
MSchaffer

MSchaffer

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I don't believe it to be a foul since it was removed prior to the shot.

BUT, if it IS in the rule book for some reason, I would say that anyone who calls a foul on this is completely ridiculous, and is trying to win matches on rule technicalities instead of actually trying to win through their own ability.
 
nobcitypool

nobcitypool

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
If he laid the chalk on top of the rail (and this is APA), that is okay. It is my understanding with APA it is actually okay to leave the chalk there. Actually putting the cube of chalk on the table itself? I can't imagine that is okay. Obviously, marking the spot on the felt with chalk is not okay.
 
hang-the-9

hang-the-9

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I thought about it with using a similar process and technique that IS a foul.

If you are lining up a shot, bank, whatever while using your cue to show the angle or line of the shot, you can use it, AS LONG AS YOU DO NOT LET IT GO AND LEAVE IT ON THE TABLE. That is a big part of the rule for using your cue to measure.

Now the chalk. you can walk around with it, but once you put it on the table and then walk away from it, to me, it's the exact same thing as if you lined up your cue to measure something then let go of the cue totally.

Therefore, if this was a refereed match and I was the ref I would call placing a chalk on the table and then walking about lining things up as a foul.

As others have said, if it was a bad player that was doing this I would not call a foul, actually if was a regular match with no ref watching I'd just tell him he can't do that but not call a foul if he did it and removed the chalk when I said he can't do that.
 
KRJ

KRJ

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Silver Member
Yes, This is without a doubt a foul. "sbpool" posted the rule, and it's correct.

In other words, you can not use other eqipment as a measuring aid. You can use your cue, that is it.

Why not just pull out a tape measure?

Or better yet, use one of those chalk cubes that attaches to a retractible line?

Or, is it wrong to use one piece, or how about if you use 20 pieces for better accuracy?

Why not just use the chalk to determine if a cue ball can pass between two other object balls... I mean, once you know the size of the chalk, if would not be that difficlt to figure out if the cb will pass through or not using the chalk as a gauge.

So, depends, in APA, or some other fun league, I would not call it. It a competitive money league, or wekkend tourney, yep, I'd call it, and take ball in hand, because those folks should have known better.
 
sbpoolleague

sbpoolleague

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
It Really Depends

As stated before, this is definitely a foul if playing in the BCAPL, but there is no guidance for this situation in most other league rule books (APA, VNEA, etc).

The World Standardized Rules states that it is Unsportsmanlike Conduct to mark a table, but I do not see any specific definition as to what "marking a table" means.

If I saw a player doing this in our BCAPL league, I would stop the player, advise him of the rule and warn him that if he was playing in the Nationals that his opponent would probably call a foul, then let him go on to finish his shot. Both sportsmanlike and educational.
 
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